512TR vs 360CS ... straight line acceleration

You must have a lot of confidence in your geartrain, Manny.

 

Somebody found a post on the Ferrari test track where a first-gen Testarossa did a tick under a 288 GTO there. What I do when I want to know for sure is to substitute my ZR-1 Corvette to do such tests - it is about a tenth faster 0-100 than a TR, so if it cannot whoop my target pretty good, I know to not bother trying with the Ferrari.

The Testarossa was indeed a pretty fast car by the standards of it's day. Still is by my impoverished standards.

 

I like TR's of any variation but I would be surprised if one stayed with a 360 of any type in a straight line.

360 will get out of the hole cleaner, has a really good power to weight ratio and a closer ratio gearbox. An F1 will get from gear to gear faster too.

 

But you did a rolling start, didn't you - and had that pesky 1-2 shift already done?

 

I still own and love my 512TR and owned a 360 F1 spider (now a 430 Spider). Have tracked them all and street raced them all. No comparison, the 360 is quicker than a 512TR just like the car test results predict. The 430 of course is even quicker.

 

Next you will be telling us that you think one of those new 2009 ZR1 Corvettes is faster than my 1995 ZR-1?

Young paddleshipping whippersnappers...we geezers will still be the ultimate winners - with style and quality!!!

 

First time anyone called this 70 year old a whippersnapper, I love it.

 

As a Testarossa lover, and aspirations to own a 360 one day...I've always wondered how they compared in the straight line department. I once followed a 2001 360 F-1 onto an onramp and then onto the interstate...and initially he pulled away from me but when we were around 65mph to 70mph he could not get any more distance on my old trusty 1989 TR. I think the torque of the flat-12 is pretty hard to beat in the mid-range. I often wished they had a 6-speed tranny for the TR and geared it for better acceleration....the car would have been very potent. Even with the very low final drive ratio a well-driven TR can run the quarter mile in mid-13s or so, even with the slow shifting that is required. The 512TR is another level up....and I'd imagine the full throttle pull is pretty awesome. We also have to consider that the 360 is only running 3.6 liters versus the TR with 4.9 liters. That video is very cool, two of my all time favorite Ferraris slugging it out. A 360CS is rated at 425hp while the 512TR is rated at 421hp (or 428hp depending on the source).

I've said this story a few times, but it's worthy of mentioning again. With my 87 Testarossa I drag raced (from a 10mph roll) a 1968 Dodge Charger with a 440 six-pak motor and beat it in the quarter mile by a little over 2 car lengths. Both cars weighed about the same, he had 3.23 rear gears and I had (I think....) 2.87 in the TR, he got me in first gear but because I could hold the subsequent gears much longer I passed him at the top of 2nd gear and continued to get distance until the end of the quarter mile. I was very proud that 301 cubic inches of Italian muscle beat the invincible 440 musclecar....and the other gearheads watched in disbelief. It was a great day for me....

 

Not to hi-jack the thread, but whatever happened to the guy that said he could rev his TR to 10k rpm?

Jim

 

its the torque.
if you are in a rolling start in 2nd gear for example and you want to race for 100mph or for the qtr mile, you will beat a 360 with a 512tr. especially if it is uphill ! the 360 has similar bhp but not torque (if i remember my stats correctly).

 

Ive driven both and I can say I wouldnt consider a 360 a step up or something to aspire to. Its personal preference of course but the V8 just doesnt make the right sounds. The 360 handles well but lacks something, im not sure how to describe it. Maybe its too refined for me or too commercialized like new music is today.

 

Have never tried a 360CS but check out the all the figures guys : www.einszweidrei.de I'd say they would be very close. depends on who gets on the gas first.

 

Watching Manny's video it appears the TR gets a slight jump at start and then they enter a constant radius left sweeper with the TR on the left. Despite traveling the longer distance the 360 holds its position relative until the bend ends. At that point the 360 backs off as he has a citizen ahead in his lane.

If I'm holding the pink slips, they go to the 360 driver.

Sorry Manny.

 

Really ? Ive drag raced 360 down many front straights w my stock 512TR and I had no difficulty blowing them away in a straight line

Maybe I had better exit speed

 

If it is a rolling start and there are not too many shifts, say speed up to 120mph then I can see the tr being quicker, as the speed increases the 360 with more gear ratio optioons and better aerodynamics should take it. But for say a 2nd gear roll on the TR torque and power, not to mention less need to shift should be an advantage.

When running my boxer against a 355 down the straight at LRP I noticed he was intially a bit quicker, but he had to shift more often, and when he did the boxer put speed and distance between the two. Also at LRP I noticed the boxer had much more drive comming out of a bend than a 360. Of course a well driven 360 should carry more speed into and therefore out of a corner. But comming out of the bend on to no name straight following a slower cornering 360 I could hear him downshifting and getting on the gas, whereas I stayed in third and simply had more drive/speed comming out of the bend.

Brakes are of course another story.

The reality is these older midengined F-cars are faster than you think, and providing they have the right tires can hold their own on the track, and reasonably driven will find that road conditions not power or grip will be the difference between a boxer/tr and a 360/430 on the street. Realisticaly on the street you can go a lot faster than there is road in any of them. Big difference is on a modern the driver can make mistakes and correct mid corner or jab brakes mid bend at some fairly high speeds, whereas on a boxer once commited to a serious corner at a rapid rate there is no backing off or correcting, you can trail brake though fairly deep. Teaches you to drive better, but if following a nervously driven modern you may be left with the choice in mid bend of spinning or ramming him up the ass. Better to stay in front then, and watch joe 360 wonder why he cant keep up.

Reminds me of a guy in an old mercedes 450 sl struggling to keep up with my modded baja bug on a winding road in cape town south africa. The bug that one really taught you to drive, swing axles are great untill they extend and go into seriously positive camber right on a bend, really scary stuff.

Like 911's betteles and boxers force you to learn to drive properly, or crash. the moderns you never really learn.

Saw a guy in a lotus elise lap every car you can imagine at a LRP test and tune day, including 996 GT3cup cars. He was the f3000 champion, says a lot about knowing how to really drive.

 

Very pertinent analysis, but I wonder about the trail braking part. My 87 TR on admittedly average tyres and standard brakes is twitchy under heavy braking and any steering input makes it VERY twitchy. I would have thought that this is the aspect where a more modern car like the 360 would have an enormous advantage. Perhaps the Boxer with a different weight distribution is actually better than the TR. Of course we are hijacking the thread which is straight line acceleration!

 

I would agree that trail braking a boxer on trx tires is a recipe for disaster, but I do have modern rubber. I think with these cars it is all a matter of how smoothly you adjust the balance, and rapid shifts do upset them, that is why mid corner adjustments at the apex are really not recomended.

On a constant radius bend close to the limit on the street for example I really would not want to back off, hence the danger of following a 360 which may have a higher tolerance cusion stability control etc. On the street it seems better to go in a little slower and add power all the way through. The danger can be great here, under really heavy throttle comming out of a bend you can get the boxer to crab slightly sideways tiptoeing on the edge with throttle and stearing, if someone in front made you back off at this point recovery would be as they say questionable. Although this sounds really hero, it is not, these cars are so sensitive that once you have the feel for them, the limits are easy to discern, the trick is not to be forced past them, because the end of the edge is very well defined and quite abrupt.

A twitchy rear end can be due to tires, also worn busings and or shocks do strange things, and these cars are very sensitive to suspension movement. The TR with the radiators back there does have more rear weight bias so this could be a factor. However a TR does have wider rear tires than fronts to compensate. But then so does my boxer these days. The original michelin trx's were like ice skating. Early TR's had those tires too.

In the end like a porche 911 there is a way to drive these cars beyond what other cars can do, but it is a very narrow window and if you get it wrong it all goes pear shaped quickly.

Know the road and the car, and it is all a symphony.

As this thread compares a 360 to a 512 i think we have just expanded the definition of the comparison.

The car that handled really interestingly from the 80's was the countach. Great feel and grip blow 120, a true go kart, although terrible front end lift above 140ish, and besides the exterior looks(pure art) and low speed handling it was really quite bad.

 

This has probably done the rounds...but I have not seen it before. File under gear-box-pending disaster. But the sound!

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=M_qoQbrQahQ

 

Huh ??? WHAT?!?! 360's & 430's out running built Testarossa's ??? Maybe NOT!!!

Well... better not tell my chipped and tuned Argento Metallizatto & Bordeaux 512TR ??? Cuz ...at this year's (2008) Mikee's Malibu Picnic Mulholland Run I found myself being passed by a pesky persnicketity brand spanking new 430 spyder right in front of all the Lice lockets & Hog's parked in front of the Rock Store... as Mikee's rules are "NO Passing!" (except for an Uber troublemaker like ME) ... that just wasn't gonna work!

I was more than a bit pissed off at the unmitigated gaul and nerve of the "Kock-a-Mame-eee" V8 (although I do own a SICK sharknosed LeMans style prototipo Bruno Bori down draught Rosso Corsa 308 GTO & (formerly) Demonically Possessed (ie. Linda Blair) oh GOD she's got the VERY ANGRY sounding race engine & suspension custom built Nero V8 Jalpa, so don't think I'm slamming V8's *grin*) but when it comes to exotics such as Lambo's & F-cars, 12's are simply the ****!

Even my huge & heavy tricked out Grigio 412i 5 speed has very long legs... once that monster gets going... oh well, where was I ???

Oh YEA~! that damn 430 passed me (Vut Hootz-ba that Moo-schoog-in-a gone-if HAD!!!) and the first opportunity i found to over take him was the turn off from where the top of Mulholland turns onto Kanan and then that wonderful right turn and into LONG FAST straight back onto Mulholland... oh yea, PBAB baby! (paybacks are a ***** baby!) cuz I pull right along side him and he started paddle shifting as I passed him... even though it's Not how FAST you go, it's HOW you go Fast that matters... he never had a chance to catch me and he certainly did try.

Maybe it was because we were already going about 40-45 mph when I pulled up on him yet once that bad ass flat 12 started cooking and pulling the odds were clearly on my side... I dunno but he may have been a little green to boot, new car?!

HLL3 HermanAtor

PS... Great to see William H. "Mr. F512M Slutmobile" this August up in Monterey at the Laguna Seca...
YEA!!! you keep that "PimpHAND" strong Big Bro!*evil grin*