Why are German Cars So Bad

I used to love european cars. Back in the 70's I had lots of Alfa's, TVR's and BMW's. The 2002 tii and the 530i I had in the 70's were great cars. My recent euro car experiences have been a nightmare. The Audi A6,BMW M5, VW Passat and VW New Beetle that I have had in the last 8 years have been craptastic. More unreliable than any Renault,Fiat,Jaugar or Alfa I have ever owned. Talking to my friends that have Porsches and Mercedes they seem to be about as junky and troublesome. My German cars lately turn to junk about 70,000 miles just like the Pontiac I bought in the 90's. I put high miles on my cars but take care of them. I have had an Alfa Romeo go 450,000 with routine maintence until it rusted away.

My Honda Element has 250,000 miles on it and all I have done is belts,plugs,filters and oil. I keep wanting to get another German car but my wallet says get another Honda or Subaru. Are the Germans ever going to turn this around?

 

Over the past 20 years or so my family has owned a number of Mercs, BMWs, and VWs. Mechanically they've all been solid as a rock-never had a mechanical failure (combined over 500k miles). However, every one of those cars had some cataclysmic electrical failure. I am convinced that German schools don't teach electrical engineering! Part of the problem, esp. at the high end, is that the Germans are innovators in gadgetry that trickles down to other price points and marques. That said, the worst car we owned with respect to electrical failure was a Jetta (maybe it was just bad luck!)

 

I just sent a Jetta to auction that suffered a fuse block meltdown for no reason that could be determined.

 

The Japanese are good at sharpening swords, the Germans are in to creating new technology.

 

Bosch is the new Prince of Darkness

VW Passat- Lot's of electrcial falures car towed 7 times in 2 years. Major engine failure at 129,000 miles due to sludge. Changed oil with Mobil 1 every 5000 miles Most owners only got 40,000 miles from these motors those they replaced free. Fro me they said SOL

Audi A6 - Electrical problems every two months. Suspension bushings went after 10,000 miles brakes failed at 20,000. Car sold

VW Beetle- every 3 months check engine light and new o2 sensor, Ac compressor went. no of the power things like truck door locks or window switches work.

BMW M5- Head cracked 45,000 miles, tons of electrical problems

90% electrical problems

No more German cars for me

 

I have asked this question before and didn't receive any responses.

Namely, how is it that Bosch makes crummy chips when the ROW makes great ones?

Frankly, computer chips work great in all aspects of my life, except in Euro cars. So what gives? Is this the manufacturing equivalent of screwing up a wet dream?

Dale

 

By personal experience: No! I think the contrary is true. We tend to overengineer things to a bizarre amount. I've had my fair share of insight of electronics development during some internships, and you wouldn't know what efforts are being made for the most unimportant part and function. I know the example of a electronically controlled pressure valve, a tiny part that served its purpose very well when it was just a mechanical valve that would open at a certain pressure. Now they got a team of 5 engineers to work on it for a couple of months, designed controls and electronics, and in the end they succeeded and the valve reacted 20% faster, which accounted to some miliseconds the driver would NEVER notice, but now we have an actuator and wires and an additional ECU where before there only was a simple spring. It isn't hard to guess which of the two has a higher probability of a failure.

 

There's your answer. People began buying into Lexus in the early 90's, totally unconcerned that is was actually a Toyota. The market has dictated that heriate means nothing. As soon as enough people bought on price not marque, the Germans tanked financially.

This has come full circle... people are now buying (ugh) Hyunida & Kia "luxury" cars. Once again, price point will beat out heritage (what little Lexus has) and Lexus will tank

 

The Japanese study the ROW and do it better.

The Germans study the ROW and do it differently.

Again, what I don't understand is how Lexus and do it, but MB can't.

Dale

 

Focus.

 

i have had a bunch of cars, muscle cars, classics, exotics. i hated Porsche for some reason. then i met a guy who loved them, and knew his way around them. the more time i spent around the 84- 89 911's, the more i loved them. i jump in, they start, i drive. no drama, no leaks, no check engine lights, the damn cars work all the time. i know there are dogs out there, but if you get a used 911, do the valave adjustment, and fix the common leaks, they are amazing cars. to date, the 84 911 euro i used to have and my 89 anniversary 911 have been the most fun, reliable cars i have ever had.

my damn 2002 Nissan frontier that i bought new, and that now only has 50k original miles on it has had more isses than my 911's with 140k+ miles on them.


so i disagree about German cars being "bad". try to jump in a pantera or a Lamborghini jalpa, and go 100 miles one way to see a friend. let me know when to send the tow truck or fire truck to save you. i do know there a good and sorted Italian cars out there, but i can buy an average 911, catch up on the differed maintenance, and have a car i can take anywhere in any weather for a long, fun drive.


i cannot say that about any of my other cars.

 

Yes, I am convinced the problem is with the long German winters: there is nothing else to do, because it is too cold outside and the roads are bad.
The engineer do not have anything to do really, because the cars are very good to begin with, so rather than sit around and play cards and drink beer, they start back from scratch and they over engineer things to the max, like the new turn indicators or the
i-drive and a long list of other gizmos.
They feel the urge to change components no one ever complained about or invent new ones that no one ever asked for.
On the other hand I was in love with the rain sensor on my 540i and found the one on my 545i worked even better.
Stability control on the 545i was also working like a dream and saved my axx more than a couple of times.
So I say we need to take the good and the bad, but overall my experience was a positive one, albeit limited only to BMWs.

 

And then you get most of your money back when you resell. And there is a market.
Lets just keep this to ourselves. OK ?

 

didn't happen to me, but not surprised...I had the ignition coil recall, seat heater recall, radio quit working, starter quit working (both replaced under warranty), Tiptronic system quit working (wouldn't manually shift gears when put into "manual" mode), etc. This was an '02, (I think Gen 4). In all the warranty claims totaled over $4k, or nearly 20% of the purchase price!

 

Damn right! The only car that I can say the same or more is a Miata. Try driving 70 miles to the track. Then drive 200+ miles on the track. Now, drive the damn thing home.

Next morning, put the key in and turn it, no drama mama.

But I do love the older 911s. Yes I do.

Dale

 

Never better said. Bosch used to be the the standard that everyone was compared to. It has become unmitigated junk. We are just now replacing Bosch components in cars built 20-25 years ago that we routinely replace in cars 2 and 3 years old.

Bosch has become the Microsoft of the automotive world. Turning out new products faster than it is possible to test them and don't bother to fix it....just replace with a new product with a whole new set of bugs.

The quality is very 3rd world but the price sure isnt.

Master race my A$$.

 

I too have lost my love of German cars...I have owned an e34 M5, e36 M3, e39 Mr and e60 M5 and have noticed that the each car was worse than the model it replaced...sure they got more horsepower and faster, but they also got heavier, uglier, more expensive and less reliable. I got ride of my e60 M5 daily driver a few weeks ago and replaced it with a 2008.5 MazdaSpeed3 and have not looked back...the MS3 is more even fun to drive...my wife even committed that she liked the MS3 much better than my e60 M5...

 

How willing are you to fix a problem, once identified?

For example, there are numerous known problems with the E46 BMW's... things like bad window regulators, bad window seals, bad HVAC controls and such. These were known problems that, if you look at the forums, people will tell you all or almost all cars within the model range suffer from - which may be 2001 to 2006. Why would BMW continue to pump out cars for 5 years, knowing there was a part that had a design defect and was prone to failure?

If you don't learn from your mistakes, how can you be putting out a quality product when you know it contains those same mistakes? It seems to me that Honda, Lexus and such will put out something and refine it on an ongoing basis. When you are putting out millions of cars a year, it doesn't take long to refine things like fuel injection systems, disc brake systems, and steering racks. When something does go bad, Honda fixes it ASAP. So even if a particular model of car has a specific problem, it will be contained to that year, or even maybe a small portion of that year until Honda identified it and eliminated the problem through a redesigned part.

So IMO the bigger question is why do German car companies knowingly put bum parts on cars that they know will fail, and let those parts go to the marketplace and earn them a bad rap?

I really like German cars - a lot. But it's a really difficult justification to make. At some point in your life, you're tired of dealing with dealers and cars that break down all the time. You don't do repairs yourself, and when you get older you don't focus on horsepower and looks as much as you did when you were younger. And for those folks, a BMW over a Lexus is often a very hard sell. Even if you're only planning to keep them for 2 or 3 years, and they will remain under warranty during your entire ownership, it's still a huge pain in the ass going to the dealership 3 times a year.

Dealership experience is another problem. When I got my BMW they talked at length how awesome they were because I can get a loaner anytime I take my car in for service. The multiple times I've taken it in, I've NEVER gotten a loaner. Why? Well, because they give them out to people getting routine maintenance, and those people book the maintenance 2+ months in advance. So if you get in your car one day and it won't start, or it dies at the side of the road, or your window is stuck down and you need it fixed ASAP - you can call and they'll tell you to bring it right in... but they won't have a loaner for you because you'd have to book 2+ months out to get one. Which means it's only useful for routine maintenance, which basically means oil changes, which is crazy that people get loaners for a whole day for a 30-minute oil change.

Makes it really hard to want to buy anything from BMW or Mercedes, let me tell you.

 

I agree with what has been said. Had an '97 M3--reliability was OK (needed several reflashes for idle issues), but then I had problems with the rear subframe. Wife has an '01 530--mechanically mostly sound, but we've had to replace the rear door vapor barriers 12 (TWELVE!) times for water leaks--a known issue. I had an early E46 M3 Vert--a few mechanical issues, but several major recalls (new diff, rebuilt bottom end of engine, etc.).

I now have an '07 Cayman S, which has several annoying rattles and body fit issues (rear hatch clunk) but nothing else. I am pleased it is a two year lease.

My BMW lust has faded a bit--the new cars weigh too much, and they seem to have lost a little of their sharpness. Further, reliability figures for almost all of the German marques aren't stellar. They offer some enticing product features, but I'm afraid I may be like Frank and look across a different ocean (or across no ocean at all) when it comes time to replace the Cayman.

And I can't imagine owning something like a new M5/M6 past the warranty period--it could make Ferrari service seem cheap.

 

Dealership experience is another problem. When I got my BMW they talked at length how awesome they were because I can get a loaner anytime I take my car in for service. The multiple times I've taken it in, I've NEVER gotten a loaner. Why? Well, because they give them out to people getting routine maintenance, and those people book the maintenance 2+ months in advance. So if you get in your car one day and it won't start, or it dies at the side of the road, or your window is stuck down and you need it fixed ASAP - you can call and they'll tell you to bring it right in... but they won't have a loaner for you because you'd have to book 2+ months out to get one. Which means it's only useful for routine maintenance, which basically means oil changes, which is crazy that people get loaners for a whole day for a 30-minute oil change.

Don't get me started on this one. I was given a Kia as a loaner for my Audi A6 and refused it. Why would some one who bought a luxury car want to drive that around for a week. They at least could have given me a Mini to drive they sold those at the sister dealership.

 

Germans led the way to overcomplicating cars.

I doubt that half the people who buy an S-Class appreciate half the electronics in those cars. It's simple math, more systems = more risk of failure.

The early Porsche 911, BMW 2002 and VW Beetle were legendary because there wasn't all that much in them that would fail. The Merc 560SL I drove was top notch, but fairly simple.

Now that the Germans outdo themselves inventing stuff that no one asked for, and filling warranty claims on all of it, their cars are a gamble. I wouldn't touch a used SL from the latest generation.

 

Bingo. I spent years behind the wheel of numerous S-classes, each of which was a fantastic piece of driving machinery plagued with ridiculous electrical problems. I got fed up. I went Lexus years ago and I'm not going back. The only German car company who's products I've bought recently and would still buy, is Porsche.

MB, BMW, I've had them both and at the end of the day, for my use, they're appliances. I like my appliances to be reliable. I've never been treated better as a customer than at my Lexus dealer and I've enjoyed having to look at a card to remember the service gentleman's name, since I only see him for oil changes.

My toy cars, I don't care if they're reliable, they're toys. But for MB to get me back as a customer they'd have to be AT LEAST as reliable as my LS....sadly, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

How about plastic radiators that fail (and have failed for 20+ years)? Or front suspension bushings that wear out (another thing that's gone on for 20 years), giving the dreaded front end wobble that tears everything ELSE up in the front of the car? Electrics, as mentioned, are another ongoing 20 or 30 year problem.

OTOH, my personal experience with BMWs is that the whirring, oily bits run and run and run. I dumped my last beater '86 5 series with 250k+ miles on it just because I was tired of it. My current beater '93 5 series wagon has 204k miles. Hard, poorly maintained miles. People are often stunned when I tell them. Meanwhile, half the hatch electrics don't work and just this morning the OBC started reporting -400F temps...

Separately, I can tell you that much of my decision to buy a Porsche 996 GT3 vs at 996 TT (a better fit for my usage) was how much less junk it has to break.

 

Our family has had good luck with German cars. Our 2000 BMW 323i had over 250,000 problem free miles on it before we sold it. Our 2006 BMW 325 has over 50,000 problem free miles on it, except for the runflat tire light coming on occasionaly.