What is the benefit of the electronic pit release system Ferrari is using?

The "normal" pit stop involves four tires and fuel. The fuel usually takes longest so the wheels are securely mounted when the car is taken off the jacks. Considering the lollipop man can confirm when the fuel hose is released, what is the new system supposed to be saving - the reaction time of the lollipop man?

 

yep!

but at the cost of what happened at Singapore where a lollipop man wouldn't have raised the sign....

 

I guess mistakes can always happen so I can see the interest in having a technological solution but this contraption they have is like trying to hit a flea with an anvil but dropping it on your foot instead

 

it would save them at the end of the season $12.95 by using the electric light system over a lollipop dude.

Didnt work out to well though...

 

I thought the disaster was caused by human error, (i.e. the guy watching the refueling tripped the light too soon), not an electronic glitch?

 

It's supposed to be more reliable (and quicker) than a human -- i.e., green doesn't/can't go "on" until the fuel nozzle is actually removed. Obviously, had some sort of teething problem (like software unless a human wrongly overrode the system -- although, even it it was a human's decision to turn on the green, you could still say it was a software error because the software shouldn't have allowed it to go green if the fuel nozzle wasn't removed) or a sensor failure (which again can be considered a software or system error -- i.e., lack of a signal from one sensor shouldn't be the only "decision-maker"). Reminds me of the mid~late 90's when F was the first doing the electronically controlled gearboxes -- many bad results that made the older system seem better, but, in the long-run, it was/is the better way forward.

 

About 2 tenths of a second per race, very hard to make that up on the track.

 

.2 seconds is huge and I can see the teams wanting to use the electronic device to save the time. However, it's dangerous IMO and maybe F1 should ban it. It doesn't improve the quality of racing from the viewer standpoint and banning it would keep everyone on the same level and reduce costs. Just MHO.

 

I did not hear this about the software. Is there really software on the Ferrari system that is tied into the fuel nozzle??

 

i actually think the 2005-2006 lollipop, where it had mirrors for the drivers themselves to see if the refuelling is done was the best.

 

What -- you think it's just all hardwired with a sensor and a simple relay to turn on the light

Seriously, I don't know for sure, but I would be very, very surprised if there wasn't a microprocessor/computer involved somehow as this is how you get the "intelligence" to tell the difference between the conditions of:

1. fuel nozzle is still attached, but the sensor failed or a wire broke, and

2. fuel nozzle is really detached and the sensor is confirmed as still working (so you can better trust the signal from the sensor saying it is detached).

If it is just hardwired, they obviously need to add a microprocessor + software IMO just so the failure of a single component doesn't cause what happened in Singapore. Lately, it's been given a fancy name, DFMEA (Design Failure Mode Effects Analysis), but the idea is to try to anticipate in the design whatever could go wrong and have provisions already in place to deal with it. It's not so important on most consumer items, but things like chemical plants and nuclear power plants have always used DFMEA because a failure there can be so dangerous.

 

The lights are still operated by the lollipop guy standing in front of the car so I don't see any advantage especially now we have seen how wrong it can get. Not once, but several times.

 

It was explained on one of the broadcasts that the system used a proximity sensor to tell when the nozzle was released from the car. When the sensor lost contact with the car the green light would light. The problem with that was shown when Massa was almost released into another car. The system could tell when the fuel rig was clear, but unless the car was in the pit alone there was no way of telling if it was clear to leave the pit. I think that is where the mechanic came in at Singapore. Someone had to be able to override the system to watch out for traffic. What is not known is if a mechanic is always going to be used now or if they will only do that when so many cars pit at once.

To be fair, we have seen enough mistakes with the lillipops as well including Singapore.

 

If it is completely manually operated by a human, I agree with you -- not much advantage, but maybe he pressed the wrong button.

I do see an advantage where there are two buttons:

1st button -- turns green light "on" only if sensor also detects that fuel nozzle detached (this is the button normally used).

2nd button -- turns green light "on" regardless of all other conditions (this button only used as a last resort when human knows the driver should go).

I give them credit for trying to improve the system (even if it has some early troubles) -- it's not like the lollipop guy has never made a mistake

 

See this thread and post with pictures of the lollipop guy manualy operating the lights:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138067730&postcount=21

 

Benefit of the electronic system? ---> Hands over both championships to McLaren

 

I understand that the guy has a button and obviously made a mistake. My argument is that the system can be a good one that can prevent a driver from leaving early if the fuel hose is still attached and leave as soon as possible after the fuel hose is detached. Now, if the guy has an "override" button that can turn on the green light regardless of all else -- yes, he can still screw up.

 

I think the third picture is the most interesting...

 

you can run the light manually or automatic.
Stefano Domenicali

Q. Do you know what happened at the pitstop, because from the on-board it appeared that the green light was showing?

SD: Unfortunately there was a mistake, it was not an electronic system, it was run manually, because normally in that condition when there are a lot of cars coming in that safety car situation, it is better to have like a lollipop but instead of a lollipop you control the green light and unfortunately there was a mistake


Q. What is the advantage of the lights system compared to the lollipop?

SD: If you have that, the system allows you to have no reaction time of the guys. If everything is alright and there is no problem with the pit entry, you can go as soon as all the front and rear jacks and the refuelling rig has gone. There is no reaction time of the guys, that's the principal of the system. In this case it was completely different, it was like a lollipop situation.

 

If this is the case they should let the refueler trigger the green light, and the light should be on the dashboard. The driver knows the wheels are on when the jacks come down. a mirror overhead would let them see who is coming down pit lane. Put the driver back in control of this. Interesting thing is that for all the investment they have done nothing to mitigate the driver's reaction time.

 

I had read that it was .2 to .5 seconds per pit stop - eliminating the reaction time of the lollipop man. It can add up. As tuttebenne says they still have done nothing with the driver's reaction time.

There still needs to be some tweaking - as Steve points out - even a manual overide should have a safety on it if the nozzle is still in place...

 

agree with most, but here is the real problem:

1. light is very fast
2. driver reacts to such quick stimulus
3. driver canNOT react to Lollipop man switching BACK to 'STOP/I have changed my mind'

I see this electronic gizmo as having it cause, what, three accidents now for Ferrari as an interesting experiment, but a need to go back to the physical.

Remember a few races back when the lollipop man physically slammed onto the front, to stop someone from going when he made a mistake.

The lights cannot do that, and the driver once released typically won't look at the lights again nor should he.

Ferrari should be penalized [and I'm a F-Fan] for almost causing several of their mechanics into the emergency ward, and this last event almost causing a fire, more personnel damage, AND almost running into a pit lane car.

Some one is going to be hurt badly or killed: Ferrari should ban their experiment

 

Have they pinpointed what failed?

Thanks PapaDuck. I thought "proximity sensor", was for other cars, not fueling; a wireless/RF beacon, for each car to announce its proximity to the system checking. With Massa almost pulling into a passer-by, I wondered if the possible target car's proximity beacon was jammed by another team?

 

Q. Do you know what happened at the pitstop, because from the on-board it appeared that the green light was showing?

SD: Unfortunately there was a mistake, it was not an electronic system, it was run manually, because normally in that condition when there are a lot of cars coming in that safety car situation, it is better to have like a lollipop but instead of a lollipop you control the green light and unfortunately there was a mistake.

 

I read somewhere they switched to manual mode because of the situation with Kimi right behind Massa in the pits.

Regardless, whoever operated the system manually (it was the guy responsible for the pitstop) should be cleaning the toilets in Maranello for the next few GPs: How friggen hard can it be to watch the four tire guys raise their arms and then wait for the fuel guy to pull out the nozzle?