water pump removal

Hey Guys!
Just looking for a quick "yes or no" I'm trying to remove the 4- 13mm bolts that hold my water pump and they will not budge! so before I put a cheater bar over the end of the ratchet handle (and hopefully not snap the bolt head off) I need to confirm that these bolts do in fact rotate counterclock wise for removal correct? Thanks Again for the help!

 

Yes, they are regular right handed nuts/studs

 

Use an impact gun if you can, lesss likely to snap the rods if they are that tight

 

Thanks for the help guys! Finally got them to back out but I really thought I was going to break the heads off, They were really corroded from the coolant! Ended up removing the thermostat housing/jacket with the water pump as it was easier. Also decided to replace the thermostat and all gaskets/seal while it was out. By the way, anyone doing this might want to shop around as I called t rutlands and was quoted $256.00 for a thermostat???? and Lyle Tanner wanted $39.00 Same with the WP and gasket, t rutlands price-$700.00 Lyle Tanner-$400.00

 

Kim,
Know exactly what you just dealt with. I've had it with corroded WP bolts. Here's a couple of pix of my solution:

The 1st pic a before & after picture. That's my original corroded WP bolt probably looks just like the ones you just removed. That bolt was new & golden cad when I rebult my WP back in 2001 (search old Fchat)!!!!

Also, I had given those bolts a good coating of silver anti-sieze before installing the WP! I doubt I'd have been able to get the bolts out intact if I hadn't used the anti-sieze! Even if I'd gotten the bolts out, I suspect they'd pulled the threads out with them!

The bolt beside it is one of a set of new ones I'm installing. The bolt body should be well protected against corrosion. I've thoroughly coated the bolt's body with POR15 & let it cure. Doesn't show up too well in the picture, but that black coat has leveled to almost a mirror finish. POR15 will not let moisture or even O2 creep between it & the metal it's coating, hence there's no way those bolt bodies are going to rust.

I couldn't use POR15 on the threads as it would just fill them up. So, I will be giving each of the threads a coating of sealant. It'll be either Hylomar, or else Permatex Water Pump silicone sealant.

The 2nd picture shows how I masked the bolts for coating with POR15 coat. After taking a good look at the picture, I wish I hadn't masked off the washer face on the botttom of the bolt heads, just the hex sides & top.

Buy new bolts, thorougly degrease them, mask off the Hex part of the heads & threads, and give the bodies 3 coats of POR15. Let each coat dry until barely tacky before the next coat.

Do a trial fit of the bolts before installing. I found that I had to run a drill bit thru the WP holes to remove the built-up corrosion to make room for the bolts. It was corrosion, not AL as there was no sign of shiny metal in the red powdery mess I cleaned out.
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Would stainless steel screws solve this problem? I mean if they're available in in S.S. with the correct threaded length etc. Or could they produce some problem of their own?

 

Using stainless hardware may make the problem even worse. Stainless and aluminum don't mix so well.

That's a really great idea Verell, I'll have to do that next time I pull my pump out.

 

Yes. Using POR15 like that is a great idea. One I'll add to my bag of tricks too.

 

SS tends to gall when screwed into AL. Often when you back out the SS fastener, it brings the Al threads with it. Anti-sieze helps mitigate this, but where there's moisture creeping in, anti-sieze isn't too effective.

BTW, For max adhesion POR15 needs a mechanicly roughened surface. I probably should have scuffed the bolt bodies with coarse sandpaper, sandblasted, or used coarse scotchbrite before applying the POR15. However, I don't think there'll be enough abrasion on the bolts during insertion/removal to scratch the POR15 surface.

 

I am not so sure about this. Outboard motors are 100% aluminum and all fasteners are stainless. Ive taken motors apart that were built back in the 40's, and none of the bolts ever pulled out the threads. And in boats themselves, there is not anything used ever used in an aluminum boat that brass and stainless. If you really want to corrode the two up really good, screw a iron bolt or screw into aluminum. Given the right conditions you may not ever get it apart. One a side note, if I could have $1 for ever exhaust stud I saw twisted off a VW beetle engine, I could have made a decent down payment on my Ferrari.

 

POR15 is a real miracle product but kinda twitchy to apply. Follow the directions carefully.

Stainless bolts are not only subject to galling but they are typically softer as well. You can easily strip the head or snap it off. When you accidentally drop one, your magnet is useless for retrieving it.

Coating the bolts is a great idea, head studs would be another good application.

 

The bolts are not screwed into aluminum. From the first V8 that used bolts instead of studs (which happened in 1978 as I recall) they have all been helicoiled at the factory. I still do not favor SS because they are softer and as prone to trouble. The root of the matter is water leakage in the bolt recesses which should not happen if the waterpump is carefully and correctly installed. On the off chance water does leak in there a film of antisieze on the bolts which most of the professionals have been doing since 1978 or so will prevent any problems.

No need to reinvent the wheel here. The fix has been known for near 30 years.

How many of you use a torque wrench to install waterpump bolts? If you are not one of them you are causing a problem where none existed. The waterpump housings are very soft and easily warped. That is one of the big reasons they seep coolant.

 

Heli-coiled eh! Well I never...
Is that the only set of bolts where the factory installed heli-coils in the motor?

Just when one is assuming Ferrari made a crud design we discover they've done much better than we've given them credit for and its our own ignorance at fault. How refreshing!

 

Everywhere it is bolted and not studed it is helicoiled. And when mag castings are used even the studs are helicoiled.

There is nothing wrong with the design or most Ferrari designs when judged by the knowledge and technology available when they are built. The problems come almost invariably from subcontracted parts. Do not ever assume you are dealing with a bunch of people that do not know what they are doing. The guys who design and build the F1 cars are also shared with the production department and they do win a race or two.

Fixing and servicing them properly goes a long way in making them reliable.

 

Thats how I've always thought things stood but mine is still the outsider's perspective and threads here battling with corroded head connections etc had shaken my faith slightly. Every thread heli-coiled is much more what I'd expected.

Normally with a car that's new to me I'll buy the full workshop books and absorb them but that's not possible in this case. So I've been absorbing all I can from here. Some things haven't been touched on in my reading so far though. So I appreciate your input.

 

OEM vs. Aftermarket...

 

Brian,

I have to change the WP on my 328 imminently (its leaking) - can you please advise what the torque setting should be on the 4 bolts & then on the smaller nuts/studs?

thanks

Iain

 

8mm is 2.5 kgm
6mm is .9 kgm

 

Thanks very much indeed

I.

 

good thread....should be a stickie