348 Engine Out!! | Page 5 | FerrariChat

348 Engine Out!!

Discussion in '348/355' started by FandLcars, Apr 4, 2008.

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  1. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap

    Very nice Rick! :):)
     
  2. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    #102 FandLcars, Sep 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well, I haven't gotten too much done in the last 6 weeks, but I'm back at it! I had been waiting for the upgraded oil pump chain tensioner "plate", which is really just a brace for upgraded tensioner. That finally came in about 4wks ago, and I thought I was ready to reassemble.

    The oil pump chain drive gear bearings were upgraded type, so I thought I would just reuse them. However, after getting ready to reassemble, I noticed that the back bearing (that fits in the engine block) seemed a little rough. So I decided I'd better replace the bearings too. Total for both brgs. at Ferrparts was only about $100, so I should have just replaced them to start. Just poor planning on my part. Since I didn't have time to get parts before leaving on a 2wk. vacation, I didn't order them until getting closer to end of my vacation. So I finally rec'd them last week.

    Next challenge was removing the back bearing that fits on the oil pump chain gear drive shaft. Thought it would be easy, but like a lot of things on Ferraris, it was not! See pics... I first tried my small 3 jaw puller. I needed a longer puller bolt, so just scavenged one from an old c-clamp I had. However, when the puller started looking like a pretzel, and heat from a propane torch wouldn't help, I went to plan B.

    Plan B was to hold the bearing in a vise, and use bolts/nuts/washers to try to pull up on the gear to remove the bearing. However, clearance was just too small, and I couldn't get a complete "bite" on the bearing. In addition, the bearing is very hard and so hard to get a bite on. So the bearing kept popping out of the vise. On to plan C.

    Plan C was to take 1" thin angle, and make some bars with a lip and use my hydraulic press. Clearance was very small between the bearing and the gear, so I had to make a small lip to fit under the bearing. I set this up in my press, and even this setup started looking like a pretzel. So I stopped and again used the heat, and after about 1min, I heard a loud CRACK as the shaft broke loose from the bearing!! :D :D Kind of the Rube Goldberg approach, and plan D was a machine shop. But I thought this might help someone else facing the same problem!

    On to reassembly!!! :)
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  3. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    #103 FandLcars, Sep 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here's an updated shot of one of my almost finished powder-coated valve covers. Just have a small bit of touchup/finish work to do on it. The other piece is crinkle painted for comparison. The camera washes it out some, but the paint was actually much darker than the powder coat. I like the color of the powder coat better.
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  4. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    Nice work man!! Coming along nicely!! :):)

    Valve covers look GREAT!! :):)
     
  5. CRAIGF355

    CRAIGF355 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2005
    1,019
    NJ
    Full Name:
    CRAIG ANDERSON


    TIMES 2!!!!!!!
     
  6. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

    Jun 26, 2007
    5,822
    Hamilton, NewZealand
    Full Name:
    James
    Awesome work Rick, what is left to reassemble before you can refit the motor? From memory you were checking the gearbox and all?
     
  7. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    Pretty much everything, other than clutch and gearbox :) Reassemble the oil pump chain system,front cover, and oil pan. Then install new valve shims, cams, and timing belts, etc. Once that's done, it's mostly a matter of reinstalling A/C compressor, alternator, and then water pump, hoses, etc. Finally, just repaint frame, other detailing, clean all electrical connections, and then after fluid refills should be ready to reinstall. I'm probably forgetting something at the moment. :D
     
  8. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

    Jun 26, 2007
    5,822
    Hamilton, NewZealand
    Full Name:
    James
    Should have it all buttoned up by lunch then.......:D

    Keep up the good work mate, this thing is going to be impressive when its all done!
     
  9. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    #109 FandLcars, Oct 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Been a while since I posted an update. Last week I finally got the front cover installed again. I upgraded the oil pump chain tensioner and "plate" that bolts to the cover to the latest versions. Also replaced the timing belt drive chain tensioner, installed new chains, and replaced both bearings on the belt drive gear shaft. Of course, new crank seal also.... after doing this, I decided I should have just installed the seal after having the cover back on, instead of installing it in the cover first.

    Before installing the cover, I took a fine stone and cleaned up both engine block and chain cover gasket surfaces. I had to do a bit of prying to get the cover off when I removed it, since the belt drive shaft bearings were pressed in to both the chain cover and the engine block (per my previous posts above). So unfortunately, I did mar up the cover gasket surface in a few spots, and had to clean this up. I debated whether I wanted to use RTV on the cover gasket, but decided to use it. So that meant that I had to get things on and lined up before the RTV set too much. Kind of a challenge! Also had to pass on taking more pics during installation.

    Per my previous posts, I had been apparently having some oil leakage from the upper cover bearing (belt drive gear shaft bearing). When replacing the bearing, there's an O-ring that fits in a groove in the cover to seal the bearing to the cover. The old one looked OK, but I decided to replace it, since it didn't seem to be sealing well enough. I think the cover hole may not be perfectly round also. I also decided to use RTV in this area to further seal the bearing to the cover. Ordered a couple extra O-rings (cheap), and it took about 3 tries before I finally got the bearing in without also cutting up an O-ring. Finally, I also used RTV between the shaft and the bearing when I pressed the shaft into the bearing. Of course, I cleaned up as much of the dried RTV as I could to avoid having RTV get in the sump and possibly plug strainers, etc. Not sure if anyone has tried this, but I did want to try to do what I could to eliminate leaks here.

    I wasn't really clear from the WSM, the best way to reinstall everything, but I noticed that the belt drive shaft double-row chain tensioner could be pressed all the way in and "cocked". So I did that, and then installed the cover and tapped it on with a rawhide mallet that I inherited from my Dad (an ex farm eqpt. & auto mechanic). Wasn't sure how easy it would be to get the rear shaft bearing to press in the block, but after tapping the cover on far enough to get cover nuts on, it went in fine as I tightened the nuts. Of course, before getting the cover on too far, I had to line up and reinstall the oil pump drive gear.

    The new oil pump chain tensioner has a spring-loaded black plastic follower that travels along a shaft, and apparently is supposed to take up tensioner wear over time. After installing the cover, I turned the tensioner shaft to release this spring and follower, but noticed that the follower wasn't moving far enough for the slot in the follower to catch on the shaft key. Apparently everything was so new and tight that the follower wasn't moving fare enough to catch on the shaft. I was afraid that if the follower didn't lock on the shaft, the shaft would rotate and block the follower from moving. Luckily, after rocking the follower enough, I was able to finally get it to lock on the shaft.... so hopefully things are set now. I also used a long screwdriver to push on and release the timing chain tensioner.

    Not sure if others have had other good or bad luck with installation of this setup, but I thought I'd post that this is how I did things, and it worked Ok. Only thing I'd do differently is install the crank seal after installing the cover, instead of installing it ahead of time. PS - also have cleaned up everything, and installed all valve shims.... had to replace about 1/3 of them to get things back toward tighter end of the valve lash specs. Hope this info helps others as you do your 348 majors!
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  10. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    Good stuff Rick! :):)

    Thanks for posting! :):)
     
  11. MarkJ

    MarkJ Formula Junior

    Sep 10, 2006
    729
    NW Arkansas
    Full Name:
    Mark Jones
    Wow. I just read the entire thread from the start. What a lot of quality work you are doing. Very interesting and educational. Thanks for taking the time to post the wirte up and pics.
     
  12. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    Thanks Pap! I think I'm on the downside of the curve on this job :)
     
  13. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap

    Dont feel like coming here to do my 348 do you? :eek::eek:
     
  14. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    Thanks Mark - I'm learning about the 348 as I go. I hope that my experiences with this major will be of some help to other owners... as far as what I did and if it seemed to work for me on this job. I also hope to learn if other owners have done some things differently that may work better than the way I'm doing them. Or of anything that I'm doing that others have found NOT to do (hope I don't hear of any of those though) :D :)
     
  15. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

    Jun 26, 2007
    5,822
    Hamilton, NewZealand
    Full Name:
    James
    I'm in...... :)
     
  16. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap

    As long as you dont mind doing ALL the work while I sit back and guzzle beers?? :D:D
     
  17. jay knowles

    jay knowles Rookie

    Dec 17, 2007
    6
    Great thread with some great pictures for future reference, very enjoyable. JAY
     
  18. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    Not sure you can afford to wait for me until I finish mine, Pap.... that might be 10yrs and 25000 mi for your 30k! :D But it would be nice to drink some beer with you and meet some Aussie babes that I'm sure always hang with you!!! :D
     
  19. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap

    Hehe! :D:D
     
  20. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    #120 FandLcars, Oct 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thought I would post a few more pics of a couple things I did last week. :) A couple weeks ago I made up a Belt Drive Gear Nut socket. You can buy a special Hill Engineering tool that would be the slick way to go, but I just didn't want to pay $100 to get one. Prior to taking the nut off when I disassembled the front end, I took a crude pass at making one up, but the teeth bent some when I tried using it to take off the nut. That nut was on there tight!!!! So for reinstallation, I decided to make a better one, using a 7/8" impact socket, and taking more care. I used the edge of a 4" grinder to rough it out, and then carefully used files to finish it up. PS - grinder wheels weren't meant to be used on edge, so be sure to use Eye Protection as a precaution! See pic below. The socket teeth fit very snugly in the nut slots. :)

    The nice thing about the Hill tool is that it also surrounds the nut to help keep the socket from slipping off the nut. I did have mine slip off once... spec. torque is 93ft-lbs from data I had. As you can see in the pic... it scraped the outer 1mm surface of the nut slots... but it's on good and tight! Nut slots may look enlarged, but that's just the results of the tool scraping on the surface of the nut by the slots. There are advantages to the Hill tool, but I'm not sorry I made my tool... will get some help to push on my torque wrench next time!

    Also - I found TDC over the weekend using the "piston stop" method, and am now getting ready to reinstall cams. Bought the Ricambi 30k kit 6 months ago, which has new cam end cap/housing O-Rings and Oil seals which I wanted to replace. So today I started to get this stuff all ready. First problem - how to remove the old seals from the end seals. I didn't want to chinger up the aluminum housing, but did try to pry a little with a screwdriver, and use a pliers. After messing with this and thinking of how to do this, I happened to see one of my crows foot wrenches and decided to try a 1" crows foot with a long-handled 3/8 Craftsman ratchet. I used some steel sheet strips to protect the housing and tightened it in a vise. Then used the crows foot as shown in the pic. I didn't want to tighten down on the housing too much and take the chance of warping it, but did have to tighten it pretty snug. Then used the crows foot setup. Let me tell you.... THIS WORKS LIKE A CHAMP!!!! :D

    Later Brothers :)
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  21. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,614
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    I think it's time to induct Rick into the Stooges.
     
  22. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    +1 :D:D

    He is doing a GREAT job!! :D:D
     
  23. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,614
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    If only we could get you to pull your engine PAP! You would be a welcomed member to the Stooges. Sadly :( you only have your clutch thread. Sorry bro the oil change thread is just to easy.
     
  24. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap

    Oh, its coming! ;);)

    Was due to be done September this year. That would have been 5 years and around 4K miles. :D:D

    But we will see what happens. Perhaps 10 years and 10K miles! :eek::eek:
     
  25. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    #125 FandLcars, Oct 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Of course, that would be a real honor, Ernie and Pap, if you think the pics I've posted in this thread qualify as the "how-tos". :) I never have overhauled a complete gearbox, though, and may not have as much on-hands experience as the other Stooges. But I do qualify as a real-life stooge a lot of times.... does that help my case any? :) I have to fess up, though.... I outsmarted myself by not removing my rear bumper when doing the major, and it cost me a scratch on the bumper early-on while sliding by the car in my limited-space 2 car garage. And check out this pic of what I did with the screwdriver today while trying to remove the first cam seal....

    PS - After thinking about it, I think that Fat Billy Bob also mentioned a crows foot wrench... I think on seals in a thread that I saw some time ago. Wish I'd have remembered that before wasting time with the screwdriver or pliers!! The crows foot works GREAT!!! :D
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