355 Headers - here we go again....

A few months ago Ferrari jacked the price of 96+ 355 headers up in price to over $7900, with a further price increase of $1020 expected soon - the RH header jumped from 3449.99 to 4464.99 and we can only assume the LH will do the same.

To add insult to injury, the quality is the same (or lack thereof).

So - what is a 355 owner to do when the headers go bad - which too many of them seem to do? There are some on the market but the quality is average and they are all 4 into 1, resulting in a decrease in low and mid range torque. There's really not much there to start with, so this is not ideal. The factory headers are a good design, but they are made out of Swiss cheese and cardboard. The quality of the build is also atrocious - welding done by Mr Blobby.

What we've done is found a great company here in Southern California who can make up new headers that are the same design as the factory ones, but cheaper and WAAAAAYYYY better built (not saying much I know, but these guys make exceptionally good headers).

They are 304 stainless and 4-2-1 like factory. They have all the same bungs and air injection plumbing as the originals.

They are designed to last longer than the car.

A few "negatives"...

-They ain't cheap initial pricing will be in the range of $4750 - $4950 a pair.
-They are not designed or intended to improve power, fuel economy, emissions or sound.
-THEY DO NOT COME WITH HEATSHIELDS. Since they are the same design as factory header you can re-use the heat shields from your factory headers. This means cutting them off and having someone tack weld them back together over the new headers.
-They don't come ceramic coated - Personally I think this is next to useless, but if you want it done, you would need to arrange this yourself.
-They are not EPA or anything else certified - so technically for off-road use only.

So, any interest? We need to commit to a small production run, and would like to know if there is any interest (at all) in doing this. If no-one's interested, then that's okay - at least we tried.

PM me or call me if you need further info. I hope what I've written is clear but to summarize, these are the same design as the factory headers except built to last.

Wait.... You have a 95 355 I hear? Sorry - not yet. If the 5.2s are a success then we'll have the outlets changed and do a few sets of 2.7s. Someone also said 360? Same deal - let's see how these go first.

Thanks, Dave

 

Dave--Any pics? Have they made a set yet?

 

At this point, they have not. We simply have fab quotes and minimum lot sizes. This particular manufacturer is extremely well versed in manifold manufacturing, and does some high-end work in the race world. They are primarily focused on the hot rod market and speed boats.

Believe me, I am the LAST person on earth interested in getting into the manufacturing game. Sadly, I feel like my hand has been forced. It is important to again stress -- these are not about performance, sound, style, shine, or any such claims. Our only objective in this project is to offer a long-lasting manifold that fits right without any compromises.

If nobody is interested, that's perfectly fine with me. Keeping $25k of powder "dry" is an attractive idea too.

 

Early days still. I'm waiting for some pics of their other work - will post as soon as I get them.

Having seen their work in person, it's a true work of art. We won't be getting these polished or cleaned up in any way, so they will have that blue finish either side of each weld. Looks kinda cool

If we can get enough interest, we'll get the tooling and the first set done, check for fit, and if it's good, go from there. There is a significant investment to get the first set made, and if no-one really wants these, then so be it - I'd just rather know this BEFORE asking Daniel to write a big check. Daniel would be really mad, and I mean REALLY mad if I talked him into giving this the green light when no-one wanted them.

Maybe the price is too high? Maybe people don't want to keep the stock design and are happy to get 4-1 for less money. Maybe people are happy to continue to be gouged by Ferrari for the junk they sell? I doubt this last one though

 

We already have fabspeed , stebro, (ect) manifolds with the associated heat issues due to no heat shields.

Why doesn't the manufacturer fabricate the 'stronger/improved' manifolds WITH the heat shields already installed.

If there were a company making manifolds this way I would be interested.

p.s. I have a 1995 2.7 model.

 

Seems like a 'deal' compared to the other alternatives out there. The heatshields could be removed and attached by any competent fab shop, but I would imagine the production shop could easily develop something at point of manufacture. I have no customers needing any "yet" unfortunately though David.

cheers, brian

 

If heatshields become a stumbling block for people, then we will certainly investigate some options more thoroughly. I think that with ANY header, even the OEM ones, there's a good argument for installing a heatshield for the alternator. We sell enough alternators to people with stock headers to know that this is indeed an issue.

The other "problem" with heatshields is that everyone seems to have a differing opinion on what works and what doesn't. Wrapping the headers seems to be the best for controlling engine bay heat, but is likely to have a significant impact on header life. Kind of defeats the purpose of what we're trying to achieve. Ceramic coatings seem to have people fairly well polarized - some people swear by it, others think it's a waste of time, effort and money. I'm not expert enough to even have an informed opinion on this one. Heatshields seem to work well, but are an added expense that may be prohibitive. Since there are perfectly good heatshields on the headers coming off the car, it seems to be a great opportunity to recycle, save some money, and get an end product that looks very like the original.

Please continue with the feedback - this is exactly why I started this thread. We need to get a good idea of what people need and want.

Dave

 

I think we need more info (or Hype) before we can determine if this is a feasible endeavor.

1) What is the advantage to price ratio? I think a comparison to having original headers rebuilt by QV would be the benchmark here.

2) Since I am a relative newbie, please forgive me if I missed something, but it seems that the Tubi system gets little mention. I have been drawn to it as it comes with heat shielding and my initial research puts it in the 5-6k range so not much more that what you are saying these non-shielded headers will command.

So the challenge is, show me the advantage. I'm not trying to be a buzz kill here, I'm just a manufacturer in a different field but deal with the same challenges. If you can address these questions you have feasibility!

Just my 0.02

 

So maybe a guy should get into building alternator heat shields?

 

Steve - my answers, as good as they are (or aren't)

1) Despite QV, we get enough calls looking for replacements. There is certainly a stigma attached to the factory headers, and some buyers appear to be keen to get rid of the OEM headers entirely. There is also the wait time - for an individual that's fine but for a shop it is not economical to have a car sitting around for weeks-months.

2) I believe that what we will have is a better product, and I would expect that even if we do these with heat shields, we'll come in under tubi pricing. It's certainly the goal.

 

Cool! Bring it on then!

 

I completely support the idea of more alternatives!

But to clarify, QV London has an exchange program, where you can order a set of 355 headers outright, and pay a $900 deposit, which is credited back when they receive your old headers back. You can also send yours in for rebuilding, and wait for them...could easily take two plus weeks, with Fed Ex each way.

 

If I were looking to replace headers, I guess I would be heading towards the Fabspeeds, and then I would coat them with White Lightning by Swain Tech (www.swaintech.com). The coating would be about $380ish, and it is said to be far superior to other ceramic type coatings. I would also make a heat shield for the alternator.

I am just being a devil's advocate here, but why would I buy these headers if the Fabspeeds are essentially the same thing for less? Now if the Fabspeeds are not available, then the story changes. But based on what you have told me, it would be hard for me to spend an extra $1500 or so for a similar piece.

 

Fabspeed are 4 into 1, resulting in a loss of low and midrange. These will be 4-2-1. That's one of the reasons for the added expense - 2 extra collectors in each header. We could do 4-1 at a price equal to or slightly less than fabspeed, but why? They already make them.

Ferrari presumably spend big bucks designing their headers to get the best combination of low, mid and upper range. Rather than pretend we could do better with the design, we just want to build them better. Is it worth the extra 1500 to stick eith this design? Not sure; hence this thread...

 

Dave---Just my observations.... I think you will be hard pressed to sell a set of unproven headers to guys with no shielding, no coating, no performance data, etc for almost the price of Tubi headers and almost twice the price of Fabspeed headers... I understand you are looking to build a no-nonsense header that will last. But until they are proven they will last or proven they are worth the Tubi money, you may have a difficult time selling them at first...Once they are built will you be able to say-These headers will not fail! Will there be any kind of guarantee? Fabspeed gives a lifetime warranty for failed headers...

Now if these headers are coated and shielded, maybe you can demand that type of money. That shows you have taken steps to reduce potential heat related failures and that would be a step ahead of most aftermarket headers availble right now. But to build unproven, no frills, no shielded, not coated headers for close to $5k....Sorry I don't see many jumping on this bandwagon....

Now if someone were to make a "Heatshield Kit" - Bascially a kit that includes shields for the related components- An entire kit that comes with easily installed shields, tubing, etc. to help reduce heat related problems, no matter what header you buy... Now that would be a "HOT" seller....Anyone who does this--I want a 10% cut for the idea!!!

 

I'm on it!

 

For me the choice is simple. The headers have to have the original type shielding and insulation and have to be in the $4500 range but for that price they must be proven and have to have data to back them up. Otherwise QV of london or Tubi(which are hard to get at times and Ive been told that they are having a warranty issue right now)are the only way to go. They also have to be 4 2 1. Anything less is a waste of time and dollars and may even create more back pressure and cause other issues down the road. Headers are not that expensive to make. It always amazes me how cheap headers can be made for other cars but when it comes to Ferrari and porche....we somehow think the guy making them has a clean white lab coat and a scalpul. IF someone came out and built them with proper SS, 4 2 1 and sheilded as factory, showed the data and had a lifetime warranty for $3500 a set then they would have the market cornered and reap unbelievable sales over the years. Like I said, its not that expensive and even at $3500 they would still be making big bucks. Only problem is, does anyone want to go to the trouble and not mark them up 5 fold?
Getting back to the original poster......At that price, untested and unshielded....I doubt your would be able to sell 3 sets a year.

 

These pesky 355's!

 

Sorry, this post is wrong in many ways. I have made and had made various exhaust systems over the past 30+ years. Certainly in Indianapolis, with a plethora of great fabrication facilities, even a production run of say 20 sets with the set-up of jigs, testing etc., the cost could be in the same range as David suggests (remember this IS a retailing situation also). Many if not MOST systems seen in catalogs for larger markets, Chevy/Ford etc., use inferior materials, adequate for their task at hand but we don't need more of the same but better. The design is not being changed, merely the quality of raw material and thus end product will be improved. Performance will unlikely be affected except by the dependebility/longevity of the product, which is what it was all about from the get go.

PS I have quotes from a couple of shops for custom headers for race cars and street cars of up to $1000 per hole!!

 

It's all about volume. Back when I was in the business, we could afford to sell headers to some cars for less than $500 because we were making 200+ sets at a time. A little different when selling 2-3 sets of F355 manifolds a month. The grass is always greener, if it was as profitable as some imagine it was I would have stayed in it.

However I do agree with you, an F355 4-2-1 manifold with heatshields at $3,500 would sell like hotcakes. I now challenge you to go out there and try to do that without losing money, the only way to even make that a profitable endeavor would be to outsource it to China where you have no Quality Control/Manufacturer support

 

They should be sheilded ........ but the 4-2-1 feature is a good start.

When I get around to making a custom set for my 355 ..... they will definately have some form of metallic heat sheilding, similar to the factory manifolds.

 

Lots of talk about 4-2-1 over 4-1 in terms of torque/HP, but whats the real difference in numbers or percentages?

Are we talking significant gains/losses?

I have a 321SS 4-1 setup but with a better merge collector than Fabspeed and can't really tell any difference from stock.

 

I can only relate that the guys at Competizione told me the Fabspeeds dyno'd essentially the same as stock. So until I saw numbers, I would have to assume that there was no benefit. In theory a 4-2-1 would let you tune the every other pulses in the pairs, and then tune the main collector for the sequential pulses. But to get the design right, it would be quite a bit of research.

If you look back at some other posts, Gruppe M is working on a header system to make more power, but they are using longer primaries and it forces the removal of the cats. This is not going to be a "standard" for replacement, but a specialty item for the guy that has to eek out every last hp.

If you are doing a replacement set of headers, you are looking for more longevity, stock flow, and stock heat management, at a decent price. Take a look at Swain Tech. It may be a cost affective way to handle the heat. It is much different product than the standard "ceramic" coating.

 

In a few shorts posts, I believe I've at least verified that there are many different opinions about shields. Clearly we are not going to be able to please everyone, or it seems, even a majority of people if we commit to one type of shielding over the others.

In reference to the 4-2-1 vs 4-1 argument - there are dyno results posted in other threads that clearly show 4-1 giving more top end and less low/mid range. That's based on factory headers vs some very well made 4-1s; a league above some other brands still available. If you need more info, search for "NAPerformance Headers". My old 355 was the test mule for these. What sort of gains/differences are we talking about? Less than 10% all round.

Here's what I DO know....

1. We can't replicate the factory heat shields at anything like a reasonable price.
2. swaintech needs to be investigated.
3. alternator heat shields are underway - right Gary?
4. using ceramic/stainless sandwich heat shield material will work, but it will be ugly.
5. IF (and it's still a big if) we do this, we are going to need to include heat shielding of some form. Ideally we would allow the customer to choose what they want and go with that on a per set basis.
6. I wish we could just wrap them and be done with it. The 4-1s I mentioned above were wrapped and provided more than 12 months and 10000miles of trouble free motoring. That is still a long way from "long term" though.

In reference to costs - we received quotes from various fabricators that provided a retail range of $2990 to >20K. The sub 4k stuff really is junk. The fab shop we're going with provided the best price/quality ratio. I also wanted to keep manufacturing here in the US. It may not be much, but every dollar spent ONshore helps the country just a little bit more.

 

Fixed