512TR Differential failure causes crash - diff parts needed!

WHOA NELLY!!!

Man the spline completely snapped off! I would try calling ZF, give them the part number stamped on the sun gear, and see if they can source the part.

 

I think I just bought those brand new for one of my diff's ... I'll check the P/N.

 

I think before we all freak out, it should be noted this is not something anyone has seen before, or at least not often enough to be noted. Perhaps this car had been damaged in the past? At any rate its probably a part worth having x-rayed if the car is torn down for a major service.

I am curious to the details that led to the crash, did the drive axle lock up the wheel or something?

 

Never seen one of those break in a Ferrari. Very possibly a flaw from new.

 

Keep quiet about the diff, and tell insurance you swerved for a baby crawling across the road?

Man, that's terrible, if Rifledriver says "first time ever" then you've just been struck by lightening.....a shame.....

 

Any hardened shaft will eventually fail from stress risers emenating from sharp machining grooves, the crack will start at these sharp corners, these show well in the photo's. In order to have a long service life these sharp grooves must be produced with polished, radiused corners. Should the new parts, not have nice radiused corners perhaps a qualified machinist could perform this prior to the reinstall.
I have seen shafts fail at the bottom of a sharp snap ring groove, here there is little to do to improve that situation.

 

My thoughts exactly. Perhaps that part was not finished properly during production.

 

First, you have my condolences with regard to your car, however I am just glad that no one was injured. This suggestion is, perhaps, a little off-the-wall, but you might want to have the part examined by, e.g., the ME/Metallurgy Department of a (local) university - Stress Fracture Analysis. FWIW, they would probably actually enjoy performing the analysis as part of an academic or teaching exercise or, at least, charge you a minimal amount of money. If someone as experienced as Brian (Rifledrive) has never seen this part fail before, then, in all probability, it's failure was directly due to a manufacturing defect. It certainly does not appear that the failed part was subjected to abuse or a high-mileage situation. I know little or nothing of EU Product Liability Law, but I memory serves me, the EU has quite strict Consumer Protection laws. Accordingly, if you can show that ZF placed a defective part into "the stream of commerce...." I would think that, if the part was shown to have fractured due to an inherent manufacturing defect, ZF should, at a minimum be responsible for replacing the part and any damage caused by said defective part to your transmission and (possibly) the rest of your car. Hey, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but it might just be worth checking on. You have nothing to loose and, perhaps, everything to gain.

 

Different part number though.

If these won't work try Gaurd transmission. They have "upgraded" versions of these parts, the spider gears, and the clutches for the 308 diff. I told him about the TR diff issue and he figured he could get them made up for $3.5-$5k.

If you wnat some key measurements let me know.

Cheers,

Sean
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Those parts are available in a higher grade material.

Guard Transmission
[email protected]

 

Maybe if we're lucky we can sue everyone in the world who makes things and put them all out of business.

I have been an aiviation enthusiast since I first seen an airplane fly over me and formed the first words "pwane momma, pwane". And over my short time on earth I have seen manufacture after manufacture go out of business and close their doors. And they dont even have to be found at fault. Lawsuits cost these companies $100's of K's of dollars even when they win, simply because they have to hire powerful attorneys to fight on their behalf. Then their insurance rates go up and it gets ever harder to make a living.

A local machine shop started their business making aviation parts almost exclusivley. Over the years insurance rates for companies involved in the manufacture of airviation parts have rose so much, that many companies now refuse to make any. This is what happened to our local shop, they have now eclusively manufacturing medical products. And now the insurance to make those parts are rising beyond all reason.

We better make a choice soon as to what we want. Do we want the freedom to drive high performance products, or are we going to shirk so much personal responsibility that no one dare make anything anymore? This part is over 10 years old. The mileage is entirely unknown. The use its been subjected to is unknown. Its even unknown if that particular part is original to this particular car. How long is a manufacturer supposed to be liable for a part that fails, forever? Better watch out, because EVERYTHING fails sooner or later folks, its just a matter of time.

In 2005 a fellow flying his 1961 Cessna 210 ran his airplane low on fuel. Having forgot to switch fuel tank feeds to both tanks, which is clearly stated in the manual, the plane starved for fuel while climbing and crashed, killing the pilot. Even though Congress passed laws protecting companies from liability after a period of 20 years (can you believe this?), Attorneys brought an action against Cessna, Continental, Sperry, Hamilton, etc., virtually every parts manufacturer with parts installed on the aircraft. It cost each of those companies over $100K to defend themselves. In the process, a long time manufacturer of vacuum pumps closed their doors. They had nothing at all to do with idiot pilot and his crashing the plane, but it was the final straw. Even though they won their case, the costs of litigation and the rising insurance costs took their toll. There is now only one pump manufacturer left, and they are on very unsteady ground. The tree huggers and nerdowells may get their way, soon planes and cars of all makes and varieties will be silenced, simply because there will no longer be access to manufacturing.

Someone could make a good case about how this man could have been killed, how others could have been killed, and drag ZF or any other manufacture through the courts till they get their blood. As far as I'm concerned, they all a bunch of P***ies. If you dont have the nuts to get in the car and try driving it, if your afraid to take risk, stay the hell out of these cars and airplanes and leave real men to drive them. The part broke. Deal with it. My God people, does everything that goes bump in the night require litigation?

 

Tell us how you really feel. LOL Just kidding with you.

I think the problem you speak of is because of our screwed up laws. If they put a law into effect that says the looser pays the other persons fees you will see this "sue for everything" crap go WAAAAAAAAY down.

 

The thing about this is that it acts like a fuse to save the transmission

If you make this stronger then something more expensive will fail

It strange it caused an accident though

Ive had several snap and the car just starts coasting

I could see if you were in a corner & needed power and were unable to give it power, that would be bad

Sorry about your car

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136300401#post136300401

 

"The differential on my 1993 512TR suffered total failure at normal motorway road use and caused a heavy crash"

How did this cause a crash if you were going "normal" speed?

at a normal cruising highway speed, if the diff breaks, the car isnt going to spin. The only way this caused an accident is if you were heavily on the throttle, with the car turned and the rear tires loaded up.

The diff still shouldnt break - but dont come here and say you were just floating along and it made the car go out of control when the diff let go.

I smell BS, just like always when guys tell fishing stories or accident stories

 

The car could lose control if the drive axle went off to the side and locked horns with something.

 

Well, the laws were created by people, so its still screwed up people.

They should just pass a law that says taking control of a machine puts you in command and that you assume ALL responsibility. If it breaks or flies apart, you assumed that risk when you took control of it. And if you crash it, regardless of the reason, its on you. If you dont want to accept that responsibility, stay the hell out of the drivers seat. If we dont do something very soon to stop this runaway litigous insanity, it will be the absolute end of all American manufacturing. And if we keep suing companies outside our country, soon we wont even be able to import performance goods. Its about like shooting the chickens to keep the fox away.

 

Hi, Hugh

This car whas for sale some months ago in these area. Asking price whas about 20. or 24.000 euro. It whas in the condition you can see on the picture. There whas no mention about diff failure at that time.
So I'm trowing a little fish here.
Did this diff break and caused a crash or...did the crash caused this failure.

Did you drive this car when it happened, Hugh ? Or did you buy this car in the hope it whas only a body-repair job ?

Guido

 

How many is "several".

Also how hard is it to get to the diff on TR's? Is it a couple hr job like the 308 or very involved?

cheers

 

Paul:

I, too, have been flying since I was 16 (I have an ATP and went to Embry-Riddle University for 2 years before the airlines decided to deregulate). Hey, I'm not suggesting suing ZF, but if the part fractured due to a manufacturing defect then... I was only suggesting to ascertain the REASON for the failure and then decide the way to move based upon that information. If the part was defective, ZF should at least replace it for free. Just trying to help the guy out by maybe saving him a little $$$. For Christ sakes, I agree with you 100% that lawyers have fuc_ed up, pretty much, the entire world, that why I practice very little law and only Intellectual Property when I do! So calm down, big guy!!! LOL

Best,

Scott

 

This is where we disagree. As an attorney, you must see that any hint of responsibility by ZF for some 20 year old part, could easily be perverted into a full blown product libaility suit that could potentially cost them millions.

 

+1. Agreed. However a line does need to be drawn. I am certainly not saying that this should be a "test case". But, if failure of this part is as rare as Brian and others have stated, then it is probably due to a manufacturing defect. However, it is a 20 year old part.... I think ZF makes great products. I've never had any problem on my Ferraris. But we are talking about ZF, not "Joe's Tool & Die" (Joe is both a plumber and machinist, BTW). FWIW, if this had happened to me, I would "suck it up", repair my car and be thankful that my entire ass-end didn't lockup and put me into a bridge abutment. But, since I am an Attorney, if that did happen, it might actually make the world a better place! LOL Hey, I just patent and license chemotherapeutic drugs, what do I know or care about ME Product Liability!

 

how about we just fix the car and leave zf alone,or we could just shoot all the lawyers and the politisions and start over