FIA Response To Ferrari Position On Single Engine 2010 | FerrariChat
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FIA Response To Ferrari Position On Single Engine 2010

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by RP, Oct 28, 2008.

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  1. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    #1 RP, Oct 28, 2008
    (from autosport)


    The FIA has played down the significance of Ferrari's threat to quit Formula One if a standard engine is introduced - claiming that the onus is on the teams, not the governing body, to come up with better cost-cutting regulations.

    Ferrari's Board published a statement on Monday night saying that the Italian team would consider their future in F1 if the FIA pressed ahead with the introduction of standard power plants from 2010.

    Although that move, coming just hours after Toyota reiterated their threat to withdraw over the matter, has moved the standard engine to the centre of the debate over future rules changes - the FIA says the teams have already been offered clear alternatives.

    This was laid out to the teams in a letter from FIA president Max Mosley last month stating that there were three options for teams with regards to future engine regulations - a standard engine, an engine from a single supplier or the supply of customer power units to independent teams for less than 5 million Euros per season.

    The FIA issued its response to Ferrari's stance on Tuesday, suggesting that it was not its responsibility to back down simply because teams were unhappy about action that could be taken to shore up the sport's future.

    The FIA statement said: "The FIA has noted the press statement issued by the Ferrari Board of Directors.

    "It seems the Ferrari Board were misinformed. The FIA has offered the teams three options, one of which is the so-called standard engine, and another that the manufacturers should jointly guarantee to supply power trains to the independent teams for less than €5m per season.

    "The FIA is delighted by Ferrari's financial success and hopes this will be maintained. However a number of teams find themselves facing costs which greatly exceed income. This is not sustainable.

    "It is now for the manufacturers to agree one of the three FIA options or themselves produce concrete proposals to reduce costs to a sustainable level."

    Although clearly hoping that the teams can come up with a proposal that satisfies it, the FIA has made it clear that it will take whatever action is necessary to ensure the survival of the all teams – even if it means a standard engine.

    Referring to the consequences of the teams not agreeing on one of the two alternative options, the FIA said: "If neither happens. The FIA will take whatever measures prove necessary to preserve a credible world championship for both drivers and constructors."

    Discussions between the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) and FIA president Max Mosley in Geneva last week resulted in plans for a customer power plant deal being discussed – although at a cost of 10 million Euros per season.
     
  2. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ

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    #2 Senna1994, Oct 28, 2008
    What do you think is going to happen, Ron?
     
  3. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    #3 RP, Oct 28, 2008
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    Tony, I really never believed the FIA was going to force a single engine in F1. There is no F1 if there is only one powerplant. When we watch the IRL in the USA, a usually single engined series, we don´t cheer for the 3 or 4 different chassis they use, we follow the drivers we like.

    But that is tradition with American open wheeled racing from the time of Offy power. I never followed a team at Indianapolis because they used an Offenhauser engine. I always followed the driver.

    This is not the tradition in F1. We follow drivers AND manufacturers. Reality, the WCC is more important to the teams than having one of their drivers win the WDC. I watch F1 because of Ferrari, not so much the drivers. I have been around long enough to know drivers on a team may only be around for two years, they they switch. Schumachers, Sennas, Prosts, Laudas, even Alonsos and Raikkonens come on the scene and then leave or retire. But Ferrari, and McLaren, to some extent Williams and Renault, will most likely always be in F1. When Schumacher retired, I still followed Ferrari F1.

    From the input I get from my old friends still in F1, the intent of the FIA is customer cars. The FIA sees the need to boost the starting grid back to 24 cars, and if a Toyota drops out for financial reasons, the grid is down to 18, and what if Force India stops....there is a problem.

    Smaller grid, smaller revenue.

    So I believe at this time that what the FIA really wants is for the manufacturers to agree to sell engines to customers for that $5M Euro annual figure. I am not sure that this figure is sufficient, but that is the current paddock ¨guess¨at this moment.

    I have no problem with the FIA trying to increase, or at least maintain, the F1 grid. I am not sure of these negotiating tactics, but possibly that is the only way to get the manufacturers attention.
     
  4. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ

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    #4 Senna1994, Oct 28, 2008

    Thank you I agree, although I have to say racing was pretty fantastic in the 1970's with the Cosworths as well. However, even then we had Ferrari, Renault, Alfa Romeo, and Matra.
     
  5. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #5 Fast_ian, Oct 28, 2008
    +1 on the first sentence. However:

    1. IIRC correctly, there were at least few seasons in which it was Cosworth -v- Ferrari only [Racing was still pretty good though.] Those other guys kind of "came and went" over the years. Although, I was lucky enough to be in the pits when the Matra's were around - *What* an awesome noise those things made! [Goosebumps!]
    2. You forgot Yamaha :D [Roaring friggin' success that was!....]

    Returning to the OP - I firmly believe that even the evil pygmy and Mad Max understand that "no Ferrari = No (viable) F1" - I'm pretty sure the other teams would concur. Now, as I've said before, *if* these "team principals" could, for once, stand united and say to MM "Screw you, a realistic price for engines for the season is $XXmillion, AND we're ALL going to make "customer engines" available to anybody who wants 'em", then the "problem" goes away. [Obviously, a "limit" of maybe, two customer teams per supplier.]

    Said communication *must* be signed by all of 'em IMHO - "Divide and conquer" has to be the only way MM is still where he is IMHO - IF these guys were to grow some cojones, surely they must be able to stand up to MM, no? [Hopefully, they're all lining up behind LdM as we write......]

    As always, my 02c,
    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  6. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #6 Fast_ian, Oct 28, 2008
    Thinking more on this, yep, they want 22-24 car grids. However, I'm not sure about "customer cars" - I believe one of the bedrocks of F1 is that you've gotta be a constructor in order to participate. [We'll leave the RBR /STR thing to one side for the moment....] As you said, it's the WCC that the manufacturers (=constructors, to me at least) want - Having a WDC onboard just means you've gotta pay him more $.......

    Maybe this is just a particularly heavy handed ploy from MM to get their attention?

    cheers,
    Ian
     
  7. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #7 Fast_ian, Oct 28, 2008
    Incidentally Ron, any particular reason you picked Toyota to drop out? I just read that they've committed through 2012.

    Now, Honda OTOH....... Unless they get their act together next season, I can certainly see them saying "screw this, forget friggin' "Earthdreams".....
     
  8. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    #8 James_Woods, Oct 28, 2008
    Does anybody remember back to the days when Indianapolis was dominated by the 4 cyl Offenhauser? No particular rule for it, but those win after win after win for the Offy got pretty boring. It really did become a case of watching to see who was going to crash.

    For me, the only thing back then that made Indy worth watching were the occasional "specials" - the turbine, the Mickey Thompson car with the small block chevy, the Jimmy Clark/Graham Hill Lotus, and so on.

    We kind of had this in Formula One back in the golden era as well - the already mentioned Cosworth. However, at the time there were the magnificent exceptions - the Ferrari and Maserati cars; the great Gurney-Weslake, even Porsche was there back in the early 60s.

    I just cannot believe that Bernie/Max could be so stupid as to try to rule out mechanical diversity - where are they taking their cues from? Nascar?
     
  9. orange

    orange Karting

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    #9 orange, Oct 28, 2008
    Very good analysis by Ron.

    I am not sure how to interpret:
    "It seems the Ferrari Board were misinformed. The FIA has offered the teams three options, one of which is the so-called standard engine, and another that the manufacturers should jointly guarantee to supply power trains to the independent teams for less than €5m per season."

    Does that mean all 3 options are available for a team's choice? Or does it mean they will adopt one of the three?
     
  10. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

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    #10 senna21, Oct 28, 2008
    Toyota was the first of the manufacturers to come out and say they'd leave if the one engine make deal went through. Ferrari came out a couple of hours later.
     
  11. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #11 Fast_ian, Oct 28, 2008
    That one, is what they're currently saying. However, they've left it open with (something like):

    "If the teams want to make counter proposals, they can". [I'm paraphrasing slightly.]

    If they don't come up with their own ideas (which must obviously be acceptable to MM) then the FIA will choose.....
     
  12. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #12 Fast_ian, Oct 28, 2008
    Thankyou
     
  13. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    #13 RP, Oct 28, 2008
    Toyota. I think now the largest auto company in the world. In racing, I think Pikes Peak was their best show. At LeMans, they were just so-so, now in F1, despite an immense budget, they have only had a few brilliant moments. Pretty bad for a name like Toyota. I would not be surprised if the world economy affects this team and they look for an excuse to leave. Saying they are committed until 2012 is like Ferrari saying there was no contract with Raikkonen, or there is no contract with Alonso.

    That´s why I mentioned Toyota.

    Ian, you mentioned the sound of the Matras. I was at Watkins Glen working the summer 6 Hour, remember that?? The LeMans cars in the USA!!! That was spectacular!!! My favorite F1 driver at the time was Francois Cevert, he signed on to drive in that race for Matra so he could get more laps at the Glen prior to the October USGP. So I managed to get in to the Gitanes Matra Simca garage and pits. I was in pit lane, standing next to the left rear wheel, taking som photos for my assignment. Just then, I don´t remember the other driver, maybe Pescalaro, started the car. I was not wearing ear plugs, I think I felt blood on my ear. Went back to the hotel to rest and try to get over the headache.

    I now can not hear well from my left ear because of that day. So the Matra sports cars are permanently imbedded in my memory. But you gotta love that sound.
     
  14. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    #14 RP, Oct 28, 2008
    Ian, at the beginning of this season there was a big debate about customer cars. The teams were split, and it got shelved. Customer cars are not the ideal for F1, but then, the economy will prevent any other large manufacturer from getting into the series. When you are faced with underfunded (sic) teams like Force India, even Williams, you have to worry about the ability to fill future grids. Forget how wealthy the owners of those two teams may be, they will not gamble all of their personal wealth for F1, those days are gone.

    I think that is what Bernie wants, to make sure there are full grids. There may be language in F1´s contracts with promoters that require a minimum grid as there is in most USA races. Without the minimum grid, Bernie´s percentage may be decreased, and God forbid Bernie does not make those extra $$millions. And as usual, what Bernie wants, Bernie gets. If this is true, the teams will relent, because at the end of the day, all of these team owners have increased their personal wealth through F1.

    Bernie wins by holding out the carrot, and making sure that each team gets enough nibbles for sustenance. Then he keeps the majority of the carrot for himself.

    So what I am saying, in order to first maintain a grid of at least 20 cars, an then possibly increase the grid to 24, customer cars are the only solution of which I can imagine at this time. Criticize Bernie, and Mosley, all you want. They are both quite intelligent, and Bernie for one, is quite ruthless. If you think they come up with ideas that we perceive are stupid, I assure you, that there are other motives up their sleeves. It is us that is stupid to think differently.
     
  15. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

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    #15 iwanna860monza, Oct 28, 2008
    Bernie will ALWAYS have some sort of game running, and the current one is too try and keep control of F1, he needs the manufacturers as much as they need him. F without Ferrari or McLaren - Mercedes would be like the English Premier League without ManU or Chelsea. And they need him for his ability to sew it all up and pay them all a decent cut via media exposure etc. Formula 1 is the most watched TV sport sries there is, soccer/ football would be first but it has so many different series each apprealing to a sector, Motorsport has one, hence the killing off of any competitor by the FIA, World Sportscar Championship and the World Touring Car series being notable for being dealt to and then reborn as a mere shadow of there former selves.
    So for the big two, life will always be fine, whether they win WDC's or not, they get 60 - 80% of the media attention and the flow on sponsorship. For the others, such as Honda, Force India, maybe Toyota they get a great lack of key results due to poor form and so they need to consider the investment required, thus the suggestion that maybe we get McLaren or Ferrari or Renault or anyone to design a key component and have all of the teams use that component, it would give a level playing field and alleviate cheating. But why would Ferrari or McLaren give up their advantage and agree to that ??. And so you have this power struggle.
    As for my suggestion, Ferrari currently supports two teams, Renault supports one, Toyota supports one, all by supplying engines to them. Why cant other Formula 1 teams do this. Maybe even make it mandatory. That all of the top teams such as FERRARI, MCLAREN - MERCEDES, RENAULT, TOYOTA, BMW & HONDA have to have their own Formula 1 team and a second tier team. Because on top of this you could/ would have the independants such as Red Bull and Williams and have a possible 24 - 28 Formula 1 cars each week ??.
    Maybe even an independant cup or privateers cup for these teams??.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

    Tim
     
  16. WilyB

    WilyB F1 Rookie
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    #16 WilyB, Oct 28, 2008
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    That V12 howl down the Hunaudières back in the 70s... I was with my then girl in the back on a Méhari and there might be other reasons that sound too is imbedded into my memory! :)

    The only approaching experience (in pure sound heaven I mean) is standing by the Le Bourget runway when the Concorde prototype was taking off on four RR Olympus on PC.
     
  17. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #17 PSk, Oct 28, 2008
    Harsh, started from pole and lead I believe one year until the last 3/4's of an hour ... ended up finishing second.

    I used to cr@p on Toyota too, but they are doing F1 differently than other teams. Instead of simply buying another team or knowledge (other than the supposed cheat ;)), they are developing the car, etc. themselves from scratch.

    Ferrari have been doing this since 1949, and they have only won a few championships. When Toyota have been racing in F1 (assuming it last that long, I don't personally think so) for 59 years lets see who has won more ;).
    Pete
     
  18. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

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    #18 senna21, Oct 28, 2008
    I think it's harsh as well. They came close a number of times. Most recently was in 1998 when they were leading with up to 2 hours to go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2SVFipXHjA

    Then sooo close again in 1999. They were closing in on the BMW and I don't think the BMW could have held them off when a puncture scuttled their bid. BMW were very lucky. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZCM7Elre4I Ask our very own Impdesigner if he thinks Toyota don't do well at Le Mans. :)

    Earlier they were also second in 1992. Then when they showed up with their Toyota 94C-V in 1994 (which was hamstrung by a rules change to limit the car's speed) Dauer showed up with their loop-hole 962 "road" car. They placed second in that one as well. Had Dauer not found the loop-hole they certainly would have won.

    Their F1 bid has been much maligned but they’ve done a lot better than Honda has. How many years did it take Honda to fight for podiums when they were building their own car? Toyota was doing it within three.
     
  19. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

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    #19 classic308, Oct 28, 2008
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    My favorite period in F1-V8s, V-12s, Flat-12s, Turbos and every car was unique looking...people poke fun at the 6-wheeled Tyrrell but they matched the combined GP victories of the Toyota and Honda teams...in fact they dominated the Swedish Grand Prix in '76 with a 1-2 finish....when races were still held in Europe... ;)

    Maybe a joint Hyundai/Ecclestone entity can be the "standard" engine supplier....South Korea GP here we come!!!!!!
     
  20. tatcat

    tatcat F1 World Champ
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    #20 tatcat, Oct 28, 2008
    fia should buy engines from what ever manufacturer and then offer them to the independent chassis makers at what ever they think is an attractive price.
     
  21. Isobel

    Isobel F1 World Champ

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    #21 Isobel, Oct 28, 2008
    Honda actually won in only their second year ;)
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #22 PSk, Oct 28, 2008
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    Yeah but that was back in their first attempt ... :) ...

    Since then Honda have been supplying engines for years to other teams, thus they knew their engines were competitive already and I bet they had already gained mucho information ...

    Toyota started from a clean sheet!
    Pete
     
  23. F355Bvc

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    #23 F355Bvc, Oct 28, 2008
  24. Modeler

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    #24 Modeler, Oct 29, 2008
    The 6 wheeled Tyrrel was hampered by existing tyre development. Look at its performances in today's historic racing.
    With good tyres its a whole lot better weapon.
     
  25. anguruso

    anguruso Formula Junior

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    #25 anguruso, Oct 29, 2008
    I don't understand why that's a good idea.
     
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