The official replica/re-creation thread

Was shown at the Winter Park Concours two or three years ago. The owner, Gert Petrick brought several truly awesome modern supercars (ie. M-B CLK-GTR, Porsche GT-1, Saleen S7) and this one "replica." Gert was/is living near Sarasota and in Sarasota is/was a shop that advertised in some publications as building replica '50s racecars: Either Vantage Motorworks or Vintage Motorworks, somethink like that. Putting one & one together, that is probably where this car originated.

KevFla

 

The first photo was taken at the Winter Park Concours. No name was indicated on the display card. The second photo (replica/real TR 59) was taken at the Celebration Concours. The display card had Greg Jones as the owner. There were several differences in the interior between the two cars, but I believe they are the same car.

 

With all the continuous talk about these, I thought it to be a good idea if all the information brought forward is to be found in one single thread, thus creating sort of a data-base for future reference.

It'd be great if type and chassis number could be in the subject line, in order to make it all a little search-friendly; assuming the idea finds approval!

 

How about cars allegedly based on a Ferrari chassis ?

Such as this one: http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find/4100_results.asp?lCarID=1768617

Clearly (to my knowledge) a Dino V6 powered Noble P4 replica masquerading under the registration documents of s/n 9699.

Surely, 'Fake Ferraris', mis-represented in a manner such as this one was recently advertised, also need to be 'exposed' ?

 

Doing one "well" requires pretty much unlimited access to a real one for reference and measurement. And very heavy bags full of money.

(like the silver GTO that is for sale - http://www.autotraderclassics.com/details?adId=90189702 - there is a thread dedicated to it if you search, with the same debate as to the faithfulness of the recreation. Which is impossible to say until you have the two cars side by side, as has also been acknowledged here that no two GTOs are exactly alike)

Building a replica from photographic research, even really extensive research, is almost impossible - as you are creating a three dimensional object from a two dimensional reference- the vaguaries created by focal length/perspective distortion can create very untrue shapes. Just think how many times you saw a photo of a prototype in a magazine and thought: "meh." and then were pleasantly surprised when you saw the real car? (Audi TT, Porsche Boxtser- arguably, the showcar prototype was far more attractive than the production car, Nissan 240Z, Porsche 997, Gallardo etc)

 

How about a seperate forum for this...perhaps too much volume and diversity for just a thread?

Jack

 

Jack,

The idea is to concentrate them under one nomer, to unload the forum encompassing the models that are most frequently 'copied'. Also, by far most of the mechanicals/chassis belong in this section. Just speaking for myself, but the topics in this section should read elegant things like discovered cars, request for info and discussing specific models and serial numbers, and not be diluted by the so-maniest thread screaming 'look what they've done now again'.

P4replica's post is exactly the kind of thing. A 330 chassis, with a V-6 Dino engine, and a pic of the commission plate, doesn't add up. I didn't check the numbers, but it may tell us the whereabouts of a chassis (or just its' number), a Dino engine. But I'd also like to see all the Touring Barchetta's, TR's, SWB's and GTO's, to mention a few of the most obvious.

Jack.

 

Hi Jack (how's the weather in SA....Here it is ....well stay there)

Isnt it a good idea to start an official sub-forum for this? (ask Rob Lay or so). At the RM auction there were 3 rep's a DB4 Zagato (what a beautiful car that is, well the original), a GTO and a SWB amongst some others. The Aston Martin did got very good money, the 2 others were not the best replica's.

The discussion about the replica's is very nice though.....The owners of the real thing (and the experts/purists) treat the rep-boys like dust (or worse). But why not? Crashing a rep costs about the same to repair as the same thing, but to own it is another story. For me I rather have an original 275 than a very good rep swb.
ciao
oscar

 

Hi Oscar,

Weather is okay, but somewhat overcast. We have some 250kms with the Ferrari today, will be great, and this evening watching the GP with a good number of other club members. Should be a good day!

I'm not sure about a separate sub-forum: there are many sites on the web dedicated to all kinds of replica's, and a sub for general F-car replica's might dilute things. We don't really want to discuss or expose Fiero 308 replica's, or do we?

GT4 Zagato is one very sexy car. Some replica's have changed hands for large sums, but I've seen pics of others that are as bad as some of the Ferrari's discussed here lately.

Geniet van je Zondag!

Jack.

 

Here's one that I was very taken by earlier this year, unfortunately just out of my price range. It was apparantly built by the original coach builders of the 246S, Fantuzzi, in 1968. It sports the correct 2.4l Dino engine, not sure about chassis.

http://www.aston.co.uk/carsales_index/php/action/details/car/465/Ferrari/Ferrari-246S-Dino-Front-Engine-Sports-Racer
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-page.php/carno/30426

As there are only 3 original 246S', all of them different, it is perhaps not surprising that the interior seems to not quite match. But I still think it has the right 'vibe'. I think the car they were trying to recreate was chassis number 0778, the ex (?) Gregor Fisken car. Did anyone ever see Alain de Cadenet drive it in central London on the Victory by Design Ferrari DVD? What a car! I put the question mark there because it was supposed to be auctioned at Legenda e Passione last May (see http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/magazine/3500.asp?id=13673), but I think it was pulled. It's not in the auction results.

Anyway, what's the verdict? I think this sort of replica is a welcome addition - it will never be mistaken for an original Ferrari by marque fanatics but can give the owner the pleasure of driving an early '60ies F.

Does anyone know more about this replica?


Onno
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Absolutely wrong. This fake was NOT bodied by Fantuzzi. Not at all. And not in1968 but almost 30 years later!! In England, not in Italy.
Marcel Massini

 

It maybe absolutely wrong but they are not my words. This would mean that it was misrepresented by the Aston Workshop... It is this sort of thing that gives replicas a bad name. Anyway, glad I didn't buy it then.


Onno

 

But beautiful to me.

 

what's the REAL story behind this car?

 

I would love to know as well.


Onno

 

Here's another fairly well known replica. I don't know the chassis # or what the donor car was.
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This was in last week's RM auction, and was a no-sale.

Windscreen / pillars are shocking.....

www.fluidimages.co.uk

 

I think we should differentiate between recreations, replicas and fakes.

A recreation is the same car, just built at a later date. Quite a number of GTO and SWB's exist in this realm
A Replica is a car with ferrari power that looks superficialy like the original. Norwwod P4 and maybe the Noble P4 with
a dino engine.

A Fake would be something like a noble p4 with renault power to a zGTO.

For fords we could say that some Autocraft cars and Kirkhams are recreations.
Most of the others with 427 running rear fit into the replica mold.

If its fiberglass and has a non original engine it may well be a borderline replica fake.

A proteus ctype depending on body would be close to a recreation or close to a fake.

 

Sean. With respect, I think you should bow out of this argument, before you dig yourself a deeper hole.

Both the variants of Noble P4's you cite are fiberglass-bodied replicas. Agreed, there are different standards of 'replication' (even at kit-car level), dependant upon the amount of (body and other) modifications the builder is prepared to make. But since when was a real Ferrari P4 ever powered by a FIAT Dino 2 Litre V6 ???

There is a very fine line (if anything) between the term 'replica' and 'reproduction'. Look up their definitions in Websters.

Where you'll find the term recreation used most frequently is when someone (often as not a car dealer / salesman) is trying to pass off a replica as something that is 'better' - or something that it definately isn't (as in the case of that Dino V6-powered Noble P4).

That's when a 'replica' becomes a 'fake'.

 

OK they can be called "fakes" which to me indicates they are intended to deceive.This is where the real problem is.The two main reasons for the "fakes" are that the originals are so few and expensive and that there are so many of us who want one. " So much was owed by so many to so few" so said Winston Churchill. If these cars are ever to experience acceptability within the Ferrari community they must have their own place meaning that without exception they must clearly identify themselves[the cars] for what they are. A T-bucket does not try to identify itself or represent itself as a Model T. Considering what is going on, Ferrarichat could lead the way by adding a website for "Ferrari Replicars" where they can be displayed and discussed for what the are and not infringe on the "Hallowed Ground" legimitly reserved for the originals. A club or organization would probably follow with rules starting with some kind of registered logo clearly identifying these cars for what they are. The FCA etc etc could then be more inclined to to look favorably on these creations when they no longer pose a threat to the legitimate originals. I would intend to encourage the manufaturers of these "replicars" the lead the way towards creating a legitimate community for these cars. It would give them a place of their own where they could become part of the Ferrari community for what they are and grow and prosper in a way that is accepted and uinderstood by all involved. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Correction. They should be called 'fakes' when they are intended to deceive, rather than just paying tribute to the original.

We already have one for 'Ferrari' P4 replicas: http://www.p4replicabb.com

There is also, already a '250GTO' replica register / website: http://www.reactionresearch.com/gtorr/index.html

We have that, too.

 

Tongascrew,

I agree with most what you have said.

With one exception: A fake is nothing but a re-creation passed off by the seller to be the real thing. At that point it is beyond the car, but it is the owner or seller who clouds the waters.

The reason why I'd like to see the information gathered here rather than anywhere else, is that this is the obvious spot to look for good informastion. Anyone trying to pass something off as the real thing will not reveal so on a replica or recreation website or sub-forum, but the information will be available right here where the people who know are, giving access to their knowledge for all of us to benefit from.

 

I'm uncertain how Webster differentiates between replicas and recreations, but, in the car world, I recall that a "replica" used to be car that the car manufacturer itsef made, to replicate a successful race car, a "one-off" or limited series car. An example might be the Frazer Nash "TT" replicas or the Aston Martin "Ulster," although I am out of my league here, working only on memory. Paul in the UK would probably know. They would tend to be manufactured in the period or shortly after the manufacturing run of the original.

I think "recreations," "reproductions," "tributes," and similar terms are new terms and so have not acquired their more specialized meanings. Very similar to "vintage" and "classic." I suppose the cars highest up on the register would be those closest to the original meaning of "replica," like the earliest "continuation" GT40s and perhaps the current run of Lola T70s. Identical bolt-for-bolt recreations (maybe Ivan Dutton's Type 35Bs?) will be next, I suppose, followed by the very good copies made by manufacturers such as Pur Sang (Bugatti) and Superformance (GT40). The ERA reproductions, which use more modern gear (Corvette brakes) but have a monocoque tub, etc., are fairly close, I think. Then one has the rest, with tube frames substituting for monococoques, etc., with varying degrees of faithfulness to the original.

"Fake" is just a put-down that could be slapped on all of the foregoing, is not constructive I think, and doesn't even have to be discussed.

I would dearly want a faithful P3/P4 or even better for me a 206SP!

Paul, how does one get invited to the P3/4 replica site? I looked for, but could not find, an email address at the old site, as suggested by the current log-in page. That seems to be the place to get educated.

Best regards from Manila,

Andy