Testarossa owner - move to "Diablo"?

Hello Lchat folks! First off, I have been a Testarossa owner and avid enthusiast for about 6 years - starting with an 87 and ending with an 89 model. I'm a just a blue collar type of guy who started off with musclecars, then vettes, and finally into the exotic world with the TRs. Recent economic downturns in Michigan compelled me to sell my beloved TR - and luckily I sold just before the big wall street tumble - getting a good price for the car. I have always done my own mechanical work. Over the years I've performed several engine-out services, as well as restoration of every nut and bolt in the engine bay. I'm comfortable working on TRs and never had any real mechanical problems with either of the TRs I owned - when cared for they are very reliable. I also service my wife's new Beetle and my Audi, including timing belt changes, etc. I do it all the hard way with hand tools in my work shop.

Since selling the TR....I must confess I'm having a huge amount of remorse. I have other cars that are "fun" to drive, my classic Beetle, my Audi A8L....but there is no emotional connection. I'm determined to own an Italian car again some day. My choices were either another TR as they are a huge bang for the buck, or a 360 Modena coupe with a 6-speed. Both are great cars in their own right.....although completely different in character.

But I've always had a "repressed" desire for the Diablo. My wife does not really like Lambos for some reason, perhaps they are too "in your face" for her...I don't know. But never the less...I have always liked the early 2 wheel drive Diablos. I like the raw aspects, the simplicity, the lighter weight, and the clean looks. I have zero experience with the Diablo, having only sat in one once at MAG-West down in Dublin, OH. I was impressed with how comfortable it was, and how solid it sounded when I pulled the door shut.

Here some of my questions and concerns. There is a huge amount of mechanical support on fchat for TRs, and also 360s. There are many great people willing to help and share information for us do-it-yourselfers. I don't see a lot mechanical / technical support for Lambos, are there any websites that offer this kind of information? If I were to actually get a Diablo, I will certianly need access to specific information from time to time, where should I look?

What are the weak points of the early Diablos, clutches? Electricals? Suspension? Transmission? Brakes? Air Conditioning?

This may be a stupid question, but do the windows roll down completely into the doors......it almost looks like there isn't space for them to roll down all the way?

How do the early Diablos handle hot weather and slow traffic, do they tend to run hot?

Are the early Diablos prone to squeeks and rattles?

Is the Diablo a car that in fact CAN be worked on and maintained by an enthusiast like myself?

Thank You to All who respond to my inquiry - it is greatly appreciated!

 

I would guess, the best advantage with the D, is that it has chains instead of belts. No need for an engine out belt service.

The clutch can be protected, if you know how to shift, engage the clutch, time lights in the city, and avoid burnouts.

Buy an early 91/92 car. The engine is quite good. Make sure the chain tensioner has been updated.

The biggest issue, is the potential to change the clutch.

 

Congrats on your potential purchase, I went from a TR to a Diablo twice, and both times an early Diablo. Not sure if it was luck, but both Diablos felt more reliable than the TR's I had, great for long trips and short cruises, and both handled hot weather issues without any problems. The Diablo is a lot more exotic than the TR as far as looks and the amount of attention it gets, so unless you don't like making a lot of new friends, stay with the TR.
I think it is not such a complicated car to work on, and seems fairly simple except when it comes to a clutch issue, other than that, extremely reliable and bulletproof machine. Stock brakes are weak as on the TR, and air conditioning is good, probably a little better than the TR's as well. Windows go down but not as much as the TR, there is about 1.5 inches out fully down compared to half an inch on the TR. Suspension is a lot stiffer on the Diablo, so avoid potholes, etc at all costs. Later Diablos have more gadgets to deal with, so more prone to issues later on. I like the simplicity of the early 2WD cars myself. Good luck with your search. The Diablo is a supercar in my opinion, not to be compared to today's exotics. It is a true Lamborghini, and for the money they are selling for, well worth it imo.

 

I have had 3 Tr's and went through the same decision as you. I owned 2 86's and a 90 and put probably 50k miles on them collectively. I figured it was time to upgrade so I figured the 512TR was the logical choice, but the Diablo always caught my eye. When going to dealers and asking about various cars, Diablos and 512TR's, every dealer said go with the TR, Lambos are a maintaince nightmare. My brother said to me "look at that Lambo! I'd rather have that on the tow truck than drive the TR" . Needless to say I bought the Diablo and will say it has been the most reliable car I have every had. The car is faster, more exotic, really better in every way. The one downfall with the Diablo IMO is it attracts too much attention. It's kinda cool to have people giving the thumbs up etc...but it gets a little old when everywhere you go cars pull in after you and want to talk to you for a half hour. If the attention dosen't bother you, buy the Diablo, you won't regret it. I bought a 94VT because IMO it's the first of the good cars, ALL wheel drive (though some here may not like it, I think it's the only way to go) Adjustable suspension, power steering, new instrument pod etc.

 

From TR to 94VT and I won't go back "One Raging Bull & Prancing Horses" http://vimeo.com/2236981

 

Thanks for all of the great responses! I'm happy to hear that Diablos are reliable. How would I verify that the timing chain tensioner upgrade has been performed?

Are there service manuals available for these cars?

Do the early Diablos have electronic fuel injection? If so....is this system covered in the shop manual?

My primary concern is still maintenance.....since I will be turning all the wrenches myself.

TONY2TA: Thanks for the video link....that was cool.....

 

Diablo get the most attention. But don't panic if you need to call a tow truck due to the diablo broke down on you during traffic hours. I had the clutch rod broke down once (common problem). Car couldn't restart after driving for half hour or so (worned out/melted wiring skin inside the engine bay). Clutch assembly burned down in stop and go traffic for half an hour (after pressing the clutch for 200 times while shifting 1st to neutual, then neutual to 1st).

 

Here is a Diablo with many upgrades, including the clutch actuation system......this would probably be my kind of car...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Murcielago-Roadster-rims-X-large-Brembo-Racing-brakes_W0QQitemZ330286534988QQihZ014QQcategoryZ157068QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

hehe... the red 360 forgot to take his turn. Looks like he caught up at the end of the video though.
Jeff, good luck with whatever you decide to do!

 

Dear Lamborghinisti,

Carguy! ....fancy meeting you here.


For those who don't know, Carguy is an asset and great resource on the TR forum. He has done his own engine out majors and refurbished his engine and engine bay on the 2 TR's he has owned. He has posted all his work and has helped all of us out time after time. He really knows his TR stuff. That said, I wouldn't mind having Carguy on this forum with some real Diablo technical expertise.


OK, since I currently drive a Diablo (97.5 Diablo VT Roadster ) and a Testarossa (91 US ), I think I can add my perspective.

Believe it or not, these two cars are more similar than not. Both a low-slung sexy, wide, over-the-top 12 cyl cars. Both cars drive very well, can be used as daily drivers and long trips. Both are reliable enough for stop and go traffic, heavy Florida rain and hot Florida summer weather. Both are expensive to maintain and quite even in cost.

Carguy, I know you always talk about keeping your "working class" roots but with a Diablo, you will have to give that up. The Diablo is the ultimate in show-stopper appeal. I know you think owning a TR (most over the top Ferrari ) gets all the attention....it ain't nothing like the Diablo. Good luck getting out of the gas station. Once those doors go up ( yeah yeah, the panties go down ), you can hear a collective ohhh from all around you. With the Ferrari, you're a successful business person....with a Diablo you're a rock star.

Since I have both cars parked next to each other, you can really see the Testarossa influence in the Diablo design. The cars are almost the same dimensions. The Diablo is lower about 1/2" and wider about 2" (78" TR / 80" Diablo ) The only time you can say a TR is conservative is when it's parked next to the Diablo. From the back....those super wide wheels and wing....just too insane !

From a maintenance point of view, both cost about the same to maintain. Because the Diablo is a more modern design, unfortunately, it has way more electronics and complexity. If you have an engine ECU go out....about 5k each now....if you can find one. On the later Diablos, you have a GFA computer module....another 3k. The Diablo also has a CEL (check engine light ) system which is OBD 1 from 91-95 OBD II from 96-01 Both systems are wound too tight and you find you chase CEL codes more than anything else. OBD II is better as you can buy a scanner and read info in real time and pull specific codes....reset them as well. With the earlier cars, you have an on board diagnostics but not as precise. A aftermarket scanner will not work with the OBD I cars. That said, the extra 112 hp compared to the TR makes it worth while

The Diablo design is more compromised in execution compared to the TR. On the TR, you don't have heat soak issues like a Diablo. The starter and alt are next to the manifolds and have shorter lifespans. On the earlier Diablo (91-93) you can't remove the starter without taking the engine out. You also have melting wire issues. The key is to insulate things and pop the hood up after a drive.
The roadster has some specific heat issues with cracked headers due to the lack of venting in the engine cover. I recently spent 11.5K (parts alone...installed it myself ) on a complete exhaust system with jet hot coating on the new headers.

But....the Diablo does not suffer from the fuse box issues of the TR or...like any Ferrari...Timing belts !! . Yes, you do have to pull the engine to do the clutch but that's a wear issue...not time related. I maintain both my cars myself ( not engine pulling ) and you can work on them.....especially you Carguy. Both engine bays have their own space challenges but once you know how to "get in there", you will be fine.

I have much more to say in general but do you have any specific TR vs Diablo questions, I can answer them here for all to see.

BTW,

I have focused more the Diablo issues because Carguy knows the TR inside and out so there wasn't any reason to go over them again. So....I'm not bias towards my TR, just answering Carguys questions to the best of my ability.

If I had to choose one....it would be the Diablo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !

 

Pinion gear shaft and drive shaft are known to break on the early Diablo. Bad design. Chain tensioners need to be upgraded. Computers can go bad and if they do, you could be screwed since you can't get them anymore. Diablo is plague with electrical issues. Even the ones left may not work either. Other than that, it's not a bad car.

 

Hello Shamile: I'm not deserving of such accolades - but thank you my friend! I was blushing as I read it....and that don't happen often at my age. I appreciate you taking the time to post your experiences, since you have both a TR and a Diablo. Mechanically the Diablo doesn't sound too intimidating. But those electrics...yikes! If an aftermarket scanner won't work, then what is a guy to do to get the codes (OBD-1)?

As Silver1998gts points out - if there are electronic issues and the "brain boxes" are unreliable - that is scary. Pinion shafts and drive shafts troubles don't help either.

Are there any upgrades or fixes for these issues?

I'm going to register up on some of the Lambo forums and start doing research. I have a lot to learn....

 

Maybe you had a bad one. I never heard of such problems with anyone or with either of my early Diablos. Owners care to chime in?

 

Um....no scale, you were lucky. The early Diablos are great visceral raw cars....but electrical issues, they have. Silver is correct about the pinion gear and shaft on the earlier cars.

What is often not mentioned, all earlier cars have suffer from bad crank bearings that wear prematurely. Even the Lambo replacements are inferior. I learned about this from a former member FL355 who had a pristine 92. He had bad crank bearings with only 9200KM on the clock. He had to have some racing company make new ones and had the whole engine stripped down and rebuilt by some tech named Johnny in South Florida. He has some association with the "south Florida toys" He mentioned that this is a widespread "early Diablo" problem. It was corrected in the 94 VT engine with I think an upgraded "stepped" chain tensioner. The tensioner clicks into steps to maintain tension as the chain stretches. ( I'm not 100% sure but it's what I've heard and read. ) Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Like the TR, turn on the lights and the fuel gauge show more and the temp gauge reads higher.

Using the 3 key twist on the earlier cars to pull codes is very imprecise. OBD II is far better for the diy'er.

Perhaps Topcarbon can chime in. He has had 2 early Diablos.


Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !

 

Carguy -

Without any doubt, call Mike and George at Evans Automotive in Columbus. Judging from your wrenching experience you more than most could get a very accurate idea of what the cars are like from those guys. They know them backward and forward. Early cars definately have issues, but they're now known issues that have solutions (sometimes it's a different, later part, sometimes it's an aftermarket solution, etc). You can, without a doubt, get an early Diablo and "make it right", and for you probably for a lot less than others who don't do their own wrenching. Don't be under any illusions that it would be cheap, of course.

The Diablo has a fabulous library of tech publications relative to the Countach, but nothing like Ferrari. Nor are there many folks that do their own work on Diablos (though we're starting to see a few here). The raw numbers dictate some of this (e.g. Ferrari produced more TR's than Lamborghini produced all cars put together until the Gallardo and Murci came out) so Lambo simply doesn't have the depth of community.

From living with a Countach for years then moving to the Diablo, the Diablo is a rock solid, much easier car to live with, work on, and drive hard. A performance nut would put bigger, later brakes on an early Diablo, and if you wanted to go nuts on the internal you could build some nice additional power into an early Diablo engine. I am a "joe six pack", and I don't do as deep of wrenching as you do the way it sounds, but I have had to research VERY carefully all the ins and outs of what you're talking about because I can't spend the money and have it be wrong.

Good luck!

 

The Diablo has adapted and progressed over the years of its production. The early cars are raw being rear drive, but my biggest concern is the dashboard sits up to high, besides the electric gremlins. I would recommend a 94+ as they have the newer dashboard and you can disconnect the all-wheel drive I have heared it shifts better as such not to mention the weight saved. At least with Diablos your not facing failing valve guides and cracked headers(every 20k), transmissions falling apart. Another reading I recall is failing oil lines and hoses.

 

Thank You Stephane, Shamile, and Steve for "babysitting" me through this topic. I joined up on ********** and will be looking into other Lambos sites too. I do recall seeing a thread somewhere on a Lambo sight about a Diablo engine removal how-to procedure....don't remember where. I'm one of those guys who beats things to death before I jump into it. I'm actually looking forward to learning more about these cars....

 

Ferrari is a better car................just my 2 cents.

carguy......if you do get a Diablo you will be amazed at how many things are made out of cheap plastic compared to the TR that would be made from aluminum. The Diablo is like driving a pick up truck compared to the TR.......a very cool pick up truck...but still very heavy and non sporty to say the least. These are among many things that I have noticed.

The Diablo is in a class all by itself, it is, even with all the short comings, one of my favorite cars of all time.

 

Carguy -

Some more brain droppings to consider...... Being a hardcore driving enthusiast myself, of course I prefer 2 wheel drive. But even if you buy a later car you can pretty easily remove the front diff (which you'd probably want to anyway because their failures are starting to occur now with age). Remember, all wheel drive was put in to keep unskilled American drivers from oversteering their keesters off the road.

Also, some other aspects of the early cars aren't as bad as they sound:

The high early dash is 1) easily modded to a later dash style with the low profile binnacle 2) Not as bad as it sounds.... in fact I could make the argument that it puts certain critical guages (tach) in the immediate line of sight while still allowing sighting of corner apexes (unless you're short), while the later, low profile style blocks off some guage visibility. Not to start a urination competition amongst different people's preferences, just saying.......I have the lower later one and I have sat in ones with the early / high one, and there are some things I would prefer about the higher one.

The "truck like" steering at low speeds on early cars is a manual steering issue. If you really want to, you can put in a power rack from a later car with a minor weight penalty. Fixes that problem right up, though plenty will tell you it ain't THAT bad.

When my computers fail, I will probably invest the same money Lambo wants into a replacement Motec (or similar) system that's longer lived and more tunable.

Definately try to catch a ride in or drive a GOOD example that's been set up properly. A properly set up Diablo is quite a hoot, and very driver friendly relative to most earlier exotics.

 

Thanks Ken......that is also good information. My immediate problem is, that I have no actual experience with the Diablo. Heck....I've only seen a few of these cars in the real world - maybe 5 or so total. I did know a fellow who lives about an hour north of me tell me that next time he's around, he would be happy to give me a ride in his late-90s SV. But sadly I haven't seen or heard from him in quite some time. Just a ride in one would be nice. Any Lambo is so rare, as compared to a Ferrari, that it makes it very difficult to get a real world idea of what a Diablo is like. I've even searched youtube for videos just to get a sense of the sounds and sights...etc. Oh well, I have plenty of time to do my schooling and research into the "dark side".

 

Theres a guy here who owns both a TR and a Diablo and both cars where sitting in the shop next to my camaro with there fair share of issues.

The Diablo does see the shop more than the TR and he perfers the TR over the Diablo.

The only thing I know about the Diablo is that its there quite a bit, he lets all of his employees drive it and it was previously owned by Mario Andretti.

The scoop on the TR is he's owned it for over 10 years now and its still running strong so he says and its dirt slow. All I know is he got B!tch slaped by a stock Buick Grand National. .

 

Kenco, you are just stating your OPINION! I've owned both ahd there isn't anything cheap and plastic on the Diablo anymore so than the TR. The TR is actually heavier than an early Diablo, so to call one a truck is just your opinion. The Diablo is actually much faster than a TR. So I guess the bottom line is they are both great cars with similar numbers of issues and similar maintenance costs, so just pick the one that does it for you.

 

i have no experience with TRs
but this is exactly what the guy that had both or drove both say about them

 

Ok,

I have both and unfortunately have to agree with the above. I personally prefer the Diablo over my TR in the way I sit in the car and the overall look and feel. I myself feel more comfortable in the Diablo on long trips.

BUT....

I hate to say ( on a Lamborghini Forum ) the TR is a way better engineered car. Forget about the timing belts as that's a high cost Ferrari issue....not specific to just the TR. On the TR, the engine layout is spacious and you really have access to everything for servicing....except the timing belts. The positioning of the starter, AC & Alt. is such that it is away from all high heat areas.

The radiators in the TR are open to the engine bay and blow the air over the engine so the whole engine bay is cooler....no melted wires or components. Funny, at first, I really hated that as it would blow dust all over the engine bay and when caught in the rain, the engine bay would get dirty. Well, I will take that any day over the impossibly hot engine bay of the Diablo. After a drive, you can open the hood and actually hold your hand on the intake manafold. Did that once...um...only once on the Diablo...owwww !

I question the "cheap plastic" statement by Kenco. While I believe him, it may be more with the earlier 91-93 cars. My VT Roadster is....I have to admit, very well put together. There's allot of carbon fiber including the roof ! The leather is well stitched and all internal / external panels fit very well. I will say, I do get typical squeaks and rattles when I go over the railroad tracks....Roadster roof ( typical....not an issue )

When driving, you do get allot of vibration in the cockpit compared to the TR. The tightness of the engine bay typically has the exhaust or cats rubbing on the sidewalls. When I redid my headers and exhaust, I spent allot of time making sure nothing was rubbing. I even had to modify the rear grill where the exhaust exits as it too was rubbing. I eliminated all rubbing yet still you can feel some vibration. Nothing of consequence but only when I go back to my TR, you really feel how super smooth the TR engine is. That said, it does feel really slow after coming from the Diablo. (112 hp deficit )

Carguy, if you signed up on LP, do a search on the Diablo section for my threads on my header removal ( hole in my head...er ) and my VT removal thread.....lots of pix !

BTW, the site you were asking about is www.lamboweb.com .....a great resource on technical info and repairs.


Shamile

Freeze..Miami Vice !

 

The diablo is not as nimble as the tr's or the 512TR.

The Driveshaft/pinion gear "WILL" break. Just a matter of time if it hasn't.

Fun car to drive, but it's not easier to work on than the 512TR/TR.