993 last of the REAL Porsche?

I don't think we're disagreeing DM.

1) Just because it's the last air-cooled model doesn't make the 993 the last Porsche-- overall, there are cars post-993 that do indeed fit the "genuine Porsche" bill-- like you said, 997 GT3 RS (which I never said was worse than a 996 GT3, I just used the 996 as one example [from my experience]). My last sentence (GT3, GT2... etc) includes ALL GT3s-- 996/997. That, in turn, means that the 993 is NOT the last real Porsche, thereby answering the question as per the thread's title.

2) I never said the 997 wasn't fantastic. I just said that 997s are the first 911's to stray completely from the pure 911 roots. I put an '09 with PDK through it's paces a few weeks ago and LOVED it. What an amazing car! However, that's not old-school 911. It's almost a polar opposite of a 993.

3) Agreed on the supercar v production comparo-- but by definition hyperbole is extreme. I used it to get my point across.


To me, Porsche has two kinds of cars now. The few true enthusiast cars (GTX, Cayman, obviously CGT-- though you're right, that's not comparable), and the mainstream yuppie-mobiles. A 997 C4S cab with PDK, cooled seats, bluetooth, and touch-screen nav is NOT what old Porsches were all about (no doubt it's an amazing machine though). So, after the 996 (lost soul?) Porsche made two paths. One that continues the legend, and that caters to contemporary demands. Still, real Porsches are rolling out-- so like I said, 993's are not the last real ones.

I really do love my Cayman. It's very fun. Makes a great road car. Will see how it does on the track next season. You should really take an extended drive in one sometime-- you may be surprised!

-Joe

 

I don't think jlonmarks comments are idiotic, but maybe a more accurate statement about 993s at least IMHO, if I can say it without hurting your feelings, but possibly the 993 is the last real 911 and the 996 and later models are Porsches just a different type of Porsche. Its not simply the fact that the engine is air cooled that makes a 911 a 911, its the entire car, its performance, its handling daynamics, the way it feels, its solidity, its largely hand assemebled feel, its design, and its shape. Furthermore, the air cooled cars were made when Porsche built a much smaller number of cars per year. How many cars did Porsche make last year about 100,000? The 911s of today hardly seem as rare or exclusive as the cars were years ago.

Porsche has made many cars over the years, the 914, 924, 944, 968, 928, Boxster, Cayenne, and the Cayman (please include all varations in this list such as S, S4, Turbo, Turbo S, GT, GTS, S, S2 Cabrio. All are excellent performers in their class of cars but none are/were the 911. None feel exactly like a 911 and none could replace the 911. Personally, I think the 996 and 997 could also be on this list as they are so different from the 993 and previous 911s that personally I don't think they should be called 911s. I also think that the Boxster and Caymans are probably closer in spirit to what older 911s were when new.

The fact that Porsches as far as you know are still manufactured by the original Porsche company which is still located in Stuttgart, Germany... is irrelevant. A Mercedes 300SL from 1960 and a 300SL of 1993 are hardly the same type of car yet both were 2 seat roadsters, both were manufactured by Mercedes Benz and both are SLs...but the designers' emphasized different characteristics which resulted in each being very different.

With the 993, Porsche reached the end of its development with aircooled 911. Again, its not just the engine...its the entire car. To me the 996 contains many elements of what a 911 should not be. It should not share the front sheet metal of a Boxster. Nor should they have placed emphasis on having a larger rear seat and more room for rear seat passengers. Small jump seats are fine, but don't waste time, space, money or materials making this car more useful to soccer moms.

Having owned and driven water cooled Porsches back in the 80s, I'm used to hearing the "its not a true Porsche" comment but so what? They were still great cars! The 996, 997 and their variations are great cars and have excellent performance but unfortunately I just do not get excited about them. Sure they will run laps around older air cooled cars ...but in terms of beauty, feel, engineering, and enjoyment to drive...I'll take the air cooled 911s any day. I am a huge admirer of Porsches, but to be honest since the 996 was released my interest is largely in vintage Porsches.

I left the Carrera GT out of my discussion because it was never intended as a replacement in the 911 series, and its price and limited production make it more of a specialty vehicle and not really comparable to standard road cars from Porsche.

As for whether people think a 308, 328, or Mondial are "real" Ferraris ...sorry but I just don't care. I've never driven a 12 cylinder Ferrari. Once a person has, then maybe V8 models feel like 2/3s of a Ferrari. I enjoy my car for what it is. Some people may find it underpowered by today's standards, but overall its a lot of fun to drive and I do the driving. A modern paddle shifter equipped car can change gears faster than I can, but I want to drive my car and not feel like I'm along for a ride in something thats on auto pilot. If someone wants to further debate the merits of a 328 I'd gladly discuss it any day and I'd be happy to admit to its short comings: its not much on space for luggage; the interior compartment is not as spacious as newer Ferraris, and the stereo system was weak even when new. If someone has strong criticism of the car or thinks its not a true Ferrari, I can certainly accept it without getting into name calling.

Best regards,
Dino

 

993 RS the best of all

 

*CLICK*

 

For what it is worth, my first Porsche was a 996 GT2. I was a ball to drive, but it had a plasticy quality that was not commensurate with its price (over 200k US dollars, once set up with the 'ClubSport' accessories that are denied as original equipment in the US).
My second Porsche was and remains a 993 C4 Cabrio. It is nowhere near as fast or powerful, but is enormously involving to drive. It does have a older-fashioned feel than the 996 and the quality of the interior is certainly better. Technically, it is not as advanced as the 996, but I like it better, overall.
In comparing the older and newer Porsche, the 993 may seem lighter and smaller, but it is in fact a pretty heavy car, compared to the original 911s. It is far more luxurious, and at least in normally aspirated form, more powerful than the earlier cars. Although there are those that claim the 993 to be the last 'real' Porsche, the fact is, the 993 was a culmination of the older platform and in some ways, less sports car and more GT, owing to its weight and accoutrements. Keep going back in time and the cars get smaller, lighter, and more spartan. It is all relative.

 

Porsche went to water cooling only to stay cool, which is one reason the rear spoiler used to come out to help in cooling in the air cooled cars, besides downforce. The greatest fastest Porsche always has been always will be the air cooled 956-92race cars, though a few were water cooled in addition to air-oil cooling majority which won races and set the nurburgring records was air cooled. It makes the CGT look slow and obese. It takes 1000bhp Bugatti to reach the 956-962 potential with all that extra baggage and stuff that takes away from the enjoyment of driving a hyper-exotic.

 

Beautiful post. Well said and so true. Keyword is relativity. Just buy what you think and believe is the best for you. No need to ridicule or belittle others with different opinions. w/ smiles Jimmy

 

Great post. I think we can all agree that the earliest 911s will feel significantly smaller and lighter. The early cars didn't require all the smog equipment or have all computer aided items like ABS, stability control, etc. that are found in most cars of the last 15 years.

There is a fantastic video interview of the famous Porsche tuner, Alois Ruf (if one can call him merely a tuner with out ovesimplyfing the amazing work he has done with Porsches), and he basically states that you can't make up for weight in a car merely by adding a lot more horsepower. Check youtube for the video its one of the best videos I've seen in ages.

Best regards,
Dino

 

As I see it, you are obviously someone with too much time on your hands and a little too hung up on the fact that I called someone a “name”. Why are you even posting on this subject, do you currently own a Porsche or have you owned one in the past? Or perhaps, you simply see yourself as the de facto F-chat police.

IMHO, and again this is just my opinion, the OP made an idiotic comment and I simply expressed my opinion on the matter. Take it for what it is, my opinion, but to continually call me out as a “name caller” and then make snide remarks that you don’t want to hurt my sensitive feelings is a waste of time, both yours and mine.

Why did you say that you left the CGT out of the discussion? It is a Porsche isn’t it? And, after all, the OP did ask if the 993 was the last of the “real Porsches”. Honestly, I cannot follow your incoherent thought patterns. Where are you coming from?

As far as your Mercedes comment is concerned, what are you trying to say? Irrelevant? HAHA I think you are inadvertently proving my point. The new SL is no less of a Mercedes than the older SL, it is simply refined and built with the technologies of today. Does that make it a lesser car, possibly, but it is nonetheless a true Mercedes. That is the entire point here, which you apparently have missed, time marches on and today’s autos are across the board different than their earlier counterparts. Does that make them less desirable? Possibly. Are they not worthy of their marques? Of course not. After all, it was these very marques that made the cars in the first place.

Go take your 308-328, or whatever it is, out for a drive and get off the internet. Live it up a little.

Better yet, go test drive a late model Porsche and experience the thrills of a modern day sports car. Better yet, if your ever in the Philadelphia area stop by for a visit. I live nearby in Reading and you are more than welcome to take my 2000 911 C2 coupe for a spin and see what you think.


BTW, I am serious about this invitation, really, stop by for a beer and a test drive if you’re ever in the area.

 

No thanks. We have driven one, and been called an "idiot" many times before. It did not take.

Even a Porsche owner can be polite - especially when a guest on a basically Ferrari site.

 

First yes I have owned a Porsche and I've driven many, including a 996. But I did not know that current ownership was actually required to post on this site. There are many non-owners that visit the Ferrari Forums, some visit to get information before a purchase, some are just enthusiasts, but all are welcome.

As for your original post, it simply read like it was written by someone with hurt feelings.

As for my thought process, and leaving the Carrera GT out, I stated in my last post "maybe a more accurate statement about 993s at least IMHO, ...possibly the 993 is the last real 911 and the 996 and later models are Porsches just a different type of Porsche." Which would also go with my example of the 300SL of the 60s and 90s are both MBs, both are called 300SLs, but they are completely different kinds of MBs. Maybe the 300SL of the 90s should not have carried the same numbering as the car of the 60s...and maybe the 996 should not have been considered or called a 911 because its design and intentions (larger vehicle, bigger rear seating) really made it into a different car than earlier 911s.

Although, I can't take your invitation seriously, especially based on the tone of your post, thank you anyway.

Best regards,
Dino

 

Way to trim down the short list, Rob!

 

duly noted rob!

i think you would get a kick out a well kept 993 tt. with some mods, it will quench your thirst as a racer...better than anything short of a 427 cobra. and refined enough to enjoy for a night out. great cars they are!!!

pcb

 

I chuckle as I read your view which, IMHO, is right on. The reason I chuckle is I have a modified 993TT (about 500HP/500T), was considering selling in, and took a potential buyer for a spin. I announced I was going to tromp it from a rolling start of about 10mph and suggested he "hold on". Even I was suprised how the car hammered forward, lunging ahead again at frightening speed when I hit WOT in second gear. And to heighten the effect of the G forces we felt, the garage door opener flew off the sun visor, disassembled in mid air into about 4 pieces and hit us in the chest. My passenger exlaimed "holy sXXX its like an AC Cobra!" When I drove him home, his wife came out and drooled over the car and I got to appreciate it again through different eyes. The effect: took it off the market that very day. Pic attached.
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Beautiful car and great story

 

i just saw a 993 turbo, and i liked the looks alot. much more than a 997 cabrio (ick)

 

i forget which book said it, or if its just a common phrase, but a good book i had read about the 993s called them the King of Porsches. I've had a few and th e993 combined all the right things, performance, technology, refinement and incredibly good looks.
i;ve had a few 993 turbos, TS's, C4Ss. they are all incredible. infact my favorite was a 97 C2S since i fyou hammered it just right, you could break the backend loose like a gt3, squirrely but controllably so.

when i see a 993 cranking down the highway, i love taking up the following position. the lines and curves on that car are just stellar, epic, forever-fantastic.

yet, despite how much i adore the 993s, my all0-time favorite porsche is the 964, and in particular th e964 Turbo and if i had to be more specific, the flatnose S. same kind of great performance, same kind of great aesthetics, but more raw. tougher clutch. wilder noise. kids need not apply.

if you wan to see a few of them, u can check them on my site, look at hte link down on the left under the "im so foolish i actually sold these cars in a momentary lapse of reason" area... the looks of that era are unmatched. i love 997s, but nothing beats a 964 or 993.
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Fair enough. Let’s agree to disagree on the semantics of this discussion.

I can assure you that my feelings have not been hurt, as I do not care what anyone thinks of my choice of cars to be my DD. It is the perfect DD in my opinion and I couldn’t care less what anyone else thinks of my choice. I am simply tired of this recurring topic of any Porsche built after 1998 is not a real Porsche. As I said it adds nothing of value to anyone, Porsche fan or not, to say such a thing. If, on the other hand, someone says they prefer pre-1998 Porsches or pre-1998 911s then I am fine with that. On second thought that statement wouldn’t work either because many so called “purists” believe that certain older water-cooled Porsches are not “real” Pcars. That, however, is an argument for another day.

I am, and always have been, a die hard Ferrari fan as well and I would call a similar statement idiotic if it were said about modern day Ferraris. In fact, your Ferrari was one of my dream cars back in the late 80’s around the time I received my drivers license and that design still to this day is what pops into my head when I hear the word Ferrari.

IMO, if you say you are a die hard Porsche or Ferrari fan then you accept all of the cars of that company, warts and all. You don’t have to like them all but if you are truly a die hard fan of the marque then you cannot discriminately reject cars produced by that mark as being not real. What does that say about the company that you profess to admire.

BTW, I am very serious about the invitation to look me up and take my 911 for a spin if you are ever in my neck of the wood. I really am not a bad guy, counter to how I may or may not come across online. Oh yeah, and the beer offer stands as well. =) CHEERS

 

Very beautiful Turbo S! I already know how I want my 993TT to be when I buy one. Just not enough funds at the moment designated for that department unfortunately...

 

Spg993tt: Those are gorgeous 964 Flatnose Exclusives !!! Obviously, those models were the US limited models. I know because I still own my 1994 964 Turbo S Flatnose Exclusvie, only ten of these made for the Japanese market. As you see, there are distinct differences in designs. I have to agree with you that these are special cars indeed. Thanx for your post. w/ smiles Jimmy
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I can certainly understand your position as a die hard Porsche or Ferrari fan. In fact your description of a die hard Porsche or Ferrari fan gives some good insight into your opinion of the cars/brands. Maybe I'm not quite a die hard Porsche or Ferrari fan as there are models I easily find fault with or do not care for, and that goes for both vintage and modern Porsches and Ferraris.

I have to admit, I give you a few bonus points for your statement "I really am not a bad guy, counter to how I may or may not come across online." It made me chuckle a bit = ) I'm sure you're probably a good guy and we just havedifferent opinions on some cars. The internet can do many things but perhaps most importantly it can allow people to express ideas and come to have a new understanding of an opposing point of view.

Thank you for the invitation and if I'm ever in the neighborhood I'll look you up, feel free to do the same if you are ever in Newport.

Best regards,
Dino

 

Nice Turbo Flatnose. It looks different from the ones I've seen that were for the USA. The US models had headlights more like on a 928/968...your car looks much cleaner with headlights like the old factory 930S of 87-89. Just curious does your car use the 3.3 engine or a 3.6 engine from the Turbo 3.6? Great looking car enjoy it.

Best regards,
Dino

 

Thanx for the compliment, Dino. The engine is a 3.6 single turbo w/ 385HP. Cams and other modifications were rendered to make it special. Visual specs and interiors' renditions are quite different from the US versions and rest of the world. Factory seats are nonadjustable Recarro seats w/ no rear seats, etc. Only ten of these were manufactured for the Japanese market. Exhaust note is different from standard 964 Turbo 3.6, dual twin pipes w/ deeper, louder sound. Once the turbo kicks in, the sensation is as if the car is riding a flying carpet. w/ smiles Jimmy

 

Sounds like you know the essence of a pure Porshe, rear drive and light weight, though I am partial to non flato nose 964 turbos