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308 V12 conversion begins

Discussion in '308/328' started by mk e, Oct 9, 2007.

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  1. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

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    #1701 Iain, Nov 12, 2008
    I looked into this (at a very superficial level) a couple of years ago because I've always thought my 328 could use another half a gear. What kits there are around to change the drop gears on 3x8s are always aimed at track cars i.e. reducing the top end and improving the acceleration. There was a question as to whether you could even fit a gear that would go the other way - I don't recall the details but it was looking like lots of money to do anything with it & so I lost interest right there!

    I.
     
  2. mk e

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    #1702 mk e, Nov 12, 2008
    The pics of the other car show exactly what I wanted to avoid with mine. I have plenty of room with my set-up since I lowered the engine 2+" and my intake ports don't come out the top of the heads. My runners will X in the middle of the engine and be 12+ " long valve to stack, have an air box on top and still fit under the stock bonnet......I think
     
  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1703 mk e, Nov 12, 2008
    That is a nice set-up, but they are pricey, like $3500-$5000 last I checked. The other problem is the space, that set up is about 1 1/2" longer than stock and that is a problem with the long V12 already using up the room....it would save me a lot of trouble though.
     
  4. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1704 mk e, Nov 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    With the flywheel theoretically coming tomorrow (although it's not looking good since a hot job popped up in front on it this week) I thought I'd take a quick look at the space for the clutch, throwout bearing, shaft and such.

    Mounting the new throw out bearing looks quick and easy so I happy there.

    It seem the clutch shaft however is pretty happy with the assembly length right where. It looks like I can only cut out about an 1/8" before the shaft bottoms in the pilot bearing. I was hoping I throw everything together and see that an inch or so could come out because I'm pretty sure that's how much I could take out and still fit all the other parts.....I may be making a new clutch shaft.

    I guess the bright side is that if I make a new shaft I can make it so it accepts an unmodified trans gear. Hopefully I'll know more tomorrow.
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  5. KKRace

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    #1705 KKRace, Nov 14, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
    Not sure if you are planning on tracking the car or using high temp brake fluids but an engineer at Tilton told me to run the cheapest brake fluid I could find in the clutch master cylinder since it does not generate much heat. Said he goes to Walmart and buys the Walmart brand brake fluid. He said do not use the high temp brake fluid in the clutch since it is harder on the seals and does not lubricate as well and tends to draw moisture more.
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1706 mk e, Nov 14, 2008
    Good to know, I love cheap stuff :)

    The flywheel got mostly finished today. I'll finish up the last of the work in my shop and post pics.

    One thing I did learn today is that the ring gear mounting pattern is not an evenly spaced pattern like the one I cut on my flywheel :(
    It will still work but just won't be as pretty, pics to follow.
     
  7. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1707 mk e, Nov 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here's the flywheel pictures. There is a little more material that still need to come off the engine side and on the OD to separate the trigger teeth from the ring gear ears but is' basically done.

    You can see in the ring gear ears not lining up properly. it's not a big problem, but I would have preferred it was right.

    There is a pin on the engine to align the flywheel and my hole is a bit too tight to get the fylwheel on for pics so I need to open that up a bit too while I'm cutting....maybe latter today.
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  8. Pizzaman Chris

    Pizzaman Chris F1 Rookie

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    #1708 Pizzaman Chris, Nov 15, 2008
    Ooooh, that looks shiny. :)

    Looking good Mark.
     
  9. luckydynes

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    #1709 luckydynes, Nov 15, 2008
    Damn dude I wish you were down the street (hint hint lots of cheap acreage for sale around here ... 2 acres for $50k ... slap a single wide on her and a shop and call it good :)) ... you'd never see your kid grow up and your wife would learn to HATE me ... maybe not such a good idea ;).

    cheers
     
  10. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1710 mk e, Nov 15, 2008
    Lana loves here McMansion and I love not having to worry about emission testing
     
  11. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1711 mk e, Nov 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I finished up the flywheel today. I cut cut the ribs down .200, cut the ears down .100 to to form a locating feature for the ring gear, cleared out some metal on the OD, and opened up the pin hole. It's just over 7.5 lbs :)

    There is a ton of room to shorten up the assembly. I need to mount the throwout bearing to get the exact measurement, but it looks like I can shorten the bellhousing about 1 1/4".

    The shaft will let me shorten the assembly about 1/8" as is, or about 3/8" if I modify it.....so I'll be making a new shaft the correct length. The 400 block must be different from the 365 block because the Goldsmith book says he shortened the assembly .450" and there's no mention of modifying the shaft so I can only assume the 400 block is already shorter by at least 3/8".

    The starer needs to move over about 1/8" to hit the gear. There looks like plenty of room to make it happen.
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  12. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #1712 2NA, Nov 15, 2008
    Or fires, floods, earthquakes or wacko politics. ;)
     
  13. luckydynes

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    #1713 luckydynes, Nov 16, 2008
    absolutely cannot argue with that or the smog fiasco not to mention the absolute lack of work ethic!!!! .... but this real estate bust is getting people "motivated" again :).


    cheers
     
  14. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

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    #1714 luckydynes, Nov 16, 2008
    the bright side would be your car would be done in a few months LOL. ;)
     
  15. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

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    #1715 luckydynes, Nov 16, 2008
    and I "know people" regarding smog ... just in case she reads post above and screams "we're moving!!!" LOL.

    cheers
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1716 mk e, Nov 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I modeled up the stock and modified clutch shafts quickly. The modified shaft is 1 ¼ inch shorter and has a spline pattern to accept the transmission gear. I’m thinking case hardened 4340 for the shaft and trans gear hub unless someone has a better idea??

    I still need to get the exact length measurement so next up is to mount the throwout bearing and then I’ll chop down the bellhousing. I would very much like to be ready to cut metal on the shaft and hub by the end of the week, Monday at the latest.

    There is a big psychological reason to get the bellhousing wrapped up because once it’s done a V12 fits. That means that even if my monster engine never runs I can always buy a running 400i engine and bolt it in the car and drive….not that I think it will come to that, but knowing success in one form or another is guaranteed is a comforting thought after a year of work.
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  17. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1717 mk e, Nov 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  18. regisgtb4

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    #1718 regisgtb4, Nov 17, 2008
    You amaze me cutting these parts,one after another,to tiny spec,I have to make 3 or 5 of each piece to get one to spec and they are dimpy little bits.Thanks for the inspiration to you and Lucky.Would either of you care to tee it up,sudden death? Only way I could top yous.FORZA MASSA
     
  19. luckydynes

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    #1719 luckydynes, Nov 18, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2008
    no way ... told you before that's a "one ball sport" ... maybe in 30 years ;).
    `

    edit: BTW nice shredding Mark!

    cheers
     
  20. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

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    #1720 luckydynes, Nov 18, 2008
    The first time I saw one of those hydraulic throw out bearings made me want to buy an old muscle car with an automatic and convert it to a stick "just because". As a kid I had to go thru the sourcing of factory linkages for such conversions ... but then again as a kid I don't thiink I could've made something like the hydraulic setup work.

    cheers
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1721 mk e, Nov 18, 2008
    It’s just practice Reg…and being good at hiding or fixing mistakes ;)
     
  22. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

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    #1722 luckydynes, Nov 18, 2008


    shhhhhhh ;)
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1723 mk e, Nov 18, 2008
    The steel for the shaft and hub came today and I ordered the new bearings the hub will ride on.

    This is probably of interest only to me, but I thought it odd so I'm sharing.

    In the Goldsmith V12 conversion he was able to cut the engine block .450" shorter and the shaft still worked as I've already mentioned. That number is just a function of the block, bellhousing and shaft interaction. Block position on the trans and all the other stuff don't matter for this so the 400 block has got to be different from the 365/330 blocks.

    The Goldsmith car had the rear main bearing cap line up with the edge of the transmission. With the .450" cut off the engine that left him a gap of 1.847" he need to fill with a spacer.

    I didn't like the engine that far to the right so I lined mine up with the ream main bearing cap 7/8" off the edge of the trans case which was about as far as I thought I could go and still have a chance at having it fit in the car. After cutting the bell housing 1.08" I now have a gap of about 1 7/8" with the ruler I need to fill...which is 1.875" making the 2 set up different by less than 1/32".....so by pure chance and inspite of the fact that basically everything about the 2 conversions is different the left side position of our set ups came out almost exactly the same. Kind of strange.

    Mine's still better of course
     
  24. PSk

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    #1724 PSk, Nov 18, 2008
    One thing that would worry me is how long the gearbox input shaft has to be ... much longer than the v8 ofcourse. Are you going to increase the support bearing size?, or shaft size?

    From the photos above it looks like the shaft is going to be poking out of the gearbox by a good 300mm. I guess once you have closed up the castings again each end will be well supported ... I'd add a few gussets myself to ensure that shaft does not become a whip and start chewing up your transfer gears.

    As always impressed with your work ... love the flywheel. Pity you could not mount the clutch after the transfer gears so they were closer to the gearbox and thus shortening that input shaft. Having the clutch on the outside would make servicing easier too.
    Pete
     
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1725 mk e, Nov 18, 2008
    The shaft lenght bothered me too. If you look at the new trans gear desing in post 1726 you'll notice I've designed the hub to use both an inner and outer bearing like the 328 but I'm using larger bearings. I think that will take all the bending load off the shaft making it stronger than either the stock 308 or 328 designs....in theory anyway.

    I thought long and hard about how to get the clutch on the trans shaft....but I couldn't figure it out. There is just no space on the shaft for anything bigger than the gear it already has because of the frame and suspension are there....so it is what it is I guess and hopefully it is what it needs to be.
     
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