The official replica/re-creation thread

Reproduction of the 125S. i love the small boat like this one.

Funny comments here............in conclusion: better being is worth than to appear.
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No , it's NOT a real Ferrari. It's a reproduction of a "real" Ferrari using many real ferrari parts.Until there is legitimate place for these cars this argument will only continue and only cause friction etc.etc.etc. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Yup, right again. This is why a replica organization is needed. It would establish the legality of a reproduction car allowing the public to know exactly what they are looking at. This is the theory behind the Classiche program for "real" Ferraris but until they open this up to "everyone" and not just the super rich it will never be an inclusive club. There are many ways this could be done but that's a different subject altogether. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Marcel, you are entitled to your opinion bur mine is "tyrants and dictators went out of style some time ago". Don't get me wrong, I am and will continue to be a great admierer of your contribution to this community. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Daytona Berlinetta is a unique design which can be drawn with three careless brush strokes so that even my granny would know that I was drawing a Daytona! I have huge respect for Fiovaranti for creting such a design. Compared to the kids designing the cars of today, he is in totally different league. Daytona Berlinetta is dominated by a 4 meter long line running down the C-pillar and into the headlight. After cutting the roof of what do we have left of this sculpture on wheels? Not much; just another dull spider... It looks like a quick top-chop, which doesn't really surprice me as that's what it really is!

Best wishes, Kare

 

This is the quintessential sort of thread where opinions will not change: the classic car world's equivalent of the death penalty or abortion debate and I don't have the slightest interest in getting into the argument but will only say that the degree of veracity of the Nembo spyder I hope to one day own will depend on the size of my wallet. If I can afford the real one (when pigs fly) good if not plan B. Plan B that is with a damaged chassis or recreation -not starting from a fit or even fair car- with full disclosure in a manner that no future owner after my passing can claim that it is real and hiding numbers deep within that I would disclose only to the chassis counters or greffiers as the French say. When this might happen is open to debate and I will argue about this when I can afford to, not before!

I certainly would not show up at Ferrari events with it and would only show it to friends who appreciate it for what it is. Mostly I would do many miles flat out in the twisty deserted country lanes of the hills of Burgundy here, smiling from ear to ear. Peu importe la coupe pourvu qu'on aie l'ivresse as they say, which translates to its not the glass that matters it is its the beverage.

best regards,

Marc

 

It seems to me that the question comes down to what constitutes a "Ferrari". I used to think it was the chassis/engine and running gear, with the assembly sent out to be dressed. A GTE with a GTO body is still a GTE according to the numbers. Using the above criteria, every Ferrari that has ever been rebodied would be a reproduction, including some very famous cars. A true reproduction would have a scratch built chassis, a 12 cylinder engine and a hand built body. I have no strong opinion on replicas other than if they are displayed they should be identified as what they are!

 

Again: numbers.

The question remained unanswered. How much of the original car must be in the 'new' car for it to be a restored car, when does it become a replica?

To me, the piece of steel holding the value is academical. In another current thread a good point was made. Cars were campaigned, crashed, repaired. Burnt down almost to the ground. Repaired. Engine throws a rod, block gets replaced. It's all in the history of the car, a car which in the end may be re-constructed from nose to tail, over time and in stages. I was thinking about this scenario, and I think not many of us will disagree that it still is that particular Ferrari.

Am I wrong in that thought?

 

It is all about continuous history (and chassis numbers). No matter what happens to the "car" it will never be a replica, unless somebody modified it to look like another model (ie. 250GTE to GTO replication).

Agree, it is still that Ferrari but with a not so good history, which will affect it's value ... some care more than others .

The term replica is specific to taking a now old and cheaper Ferrari model and hacking it up to make a now old and more expensive model.

Ofcourse this term is also happily used when somebody starts without destroying an old Ferrari.
Pete

 

Yes, and a GTE with a GTO body is still a GTE.So if it is to be represented as a "real" Ferrari it mut be as a GTE.In order for a GTO body to fit on a GTE chassis it would have to be a reproduction. If a "real" GTO body was to be found, it by its self, would be worth considerably more than any GTE even if it could be proved that Christ drove it. My feeling wold be that the car would be better of listed as a reproduction. I am not sure whether the GTE or the GTO collecters would even want it included in their ranks. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

I guess I don't fully understand this. If I want a 250 GTO because I admire it's beauty and engineering and want to enjoy it as a car and not a show piece, I would rather spend the $500k to build a nut and bolt replica and drive it than spend $30 million so I could have the same car but also be able to say that somebody drove it and won a race (or championship) in it 45 years ago. To be honest, if all I want is to drive the car and enjoy it, why would I care what it did or was 45 years ago? The history of a car is only really valuable to ME if I'm the one that made it. It's nice conversation and important history, and for sure the original classic cars that have a history are interesting, but that's not what I really care about when it comes to owning a car, it's the actual car and the engineering that went into it. That's why, unless I have more money than I know what to do with, I can't see paying significantly more for a car than it would cost to duplicate, because I want to experience driving it, not revel in it's individual history. If it costs $500k to build a car from the ground up, that's what I'm willing to pay for it, because my goal is to drive it and enjoy it.

Lets compare it to the art world, which a lot of us are so fond of doing. If I can't afford a painting should I also refrain from buying a print of it? If I want to enjoy the beauty of a painting, should I really only be allowed to look at it if I can afford the original? I hope not. I view these cars in the same way, I look at an old car and I want to drive it. I don't really care if Jackie Stewart farted in it, it won't make it any faster or drive differently. It's the original design that's so valuable, but in the end that design can be duplicated infinitely.

HOWEVER (and this is a big however), I would NEVER buy or sell a car like that as an investment or to make a profit. The money part is always the aspect of things that will lead to corruption and ruin, and if these cars weren't worth so much money there'd be no debate on the subject. I guarantee nobody would care if I built an '84 Escort in my garage.

It's unfortunate but it all boils down to money, It doesn't have anything to do with your passion for a particular car. Which guy cares more about Ferrari and has more passion for it, the guy that spends 15 years building one in his basement, researching every nut and bolt to make it correct, or the guy that picks one up at auction because it caught his eye that day and it was under value? Which guy would you rather talk to at a car show?

Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy the history aspect of these cars and find it fascinating. And I'm not saying that just because you're a millionaire/billionaire that you don't have a passion for the cars because I know some definitely do. However, when it comes to my desire to own one, it isn't the individual history that I really care about and therefore I fully understand the desire some have to build replicas, and to say that they aren't a true Ferrari fan or passionate about them is quite short-sighted.

 

You guys just don't get it do you. How many times do I have to repeat this? . Creating a print of an original painting does NOT destroy or even harm the original painting. Everybody is happy. But taking a historic genuine Ferrari 250 GTE 2+2 and fncking it completely so that it will never ever be an original Ferrari again to make a 250GTO replica is not the same. Unlike the painting example the original is completely fncked.

BTW: A 250GTO Ferrari is only so historic because of what they acheived in the motoring history ... otherwise they are just a collection of steel and rubber, etc. like any other car. I guarantee if this Ferrari had not had this history, wins, etc. you would not be so interested in driving one.

Best
Pete

 

The fact so few people are willing to realize is that the 100k, 200k or even 500k will not usually buy you an exact copy of a GTO. 98% of the replicas are quick chop-jobs, which were built because there were fools waving with their wallets and a window for profit. Those fools are cheating themselves into believing that the hack-job gives them the experience equivalent of driving a real GTO. It doesn't. In most cases not even close. And every time yet another surplus GTE body piles in the junkyard.

Here too I think that you should really get over it and find something you like AND can afford. Leave decorating with posters to the 15-year-old girls...

If it wasn't about the money, we would not have 300 hack-jobs - and 300 surplus PF Coupe/GTE/330GT bodies floating around - in the first place. What comes to the two characters you described, I think I'd rather be talking to the latter as he would talk back, because he exists.

Very few replica owners are fans of anything else than themselves. They go to car shows and let people believe that their car is real. If they admit it is a replica, they'll claim it is a 101% accurate replica so that Niki Lauda who won Tour de Pizza in one of these cars, could not tell the difference. After seeing a lot of this going down all the time, I agree 100% with Marcel Massini: if you can't afford it, stay out and find yourself another puppy.

Otherwise you end up looking like the guy, who tries to impress 18-year-old girls with his fake Rolex. Those who see you doing it won't realize - or care - that it's different this time because you are a real fan of Rolex watches...

Best wishes, Kare

 

-

 

Is that really a factual statement? I don't have exact knowledge one way or the other, but my sense is it would buy you a pretty good copy.

 

A copy can never be "pretty good", because it is just a copy and not the real thing.
Marcel Massini

 

If you are lucky, then maybe. Most of the replicas still suck and it may be very difficult to determine which ones are better than others - especially if the definition of "better" means that it should drive like a real thing. Best wishes, Kare

 

I will make an example for this thread with an other thread in this forum
O383GT is discused in an other thread below,
After 1967 the history of this important car till THAN.- stopped immidiatly for MY. -This is a copy bild on a chassisREMAINS.
everything is wrong engine .front .etc
we must not shut our eyes closed
despait the nice corrected listing by Mr.Massini.
when Historians like Kare And Massini and othhers are honest they must ADMIT this, depait invitations all over the world
why does THIS car goes through so many hands?
other wise we get the SAME problems as the Bugatti / Bentley blower boys
historian wants a compleet list of all Ferraris including replica on F-chassis,
and I can understand this point of view.
but one thing is clear this compleet list is an UTOPY.
only my persenal opinion

ciao
Cornelis

 

In my view the value of the historian is a very important one, as we can only benefit from their knowledge. The more we know about the history of any particular car the better, it is then to the buyer of that vehicle to determine how much he is willing to pay for what is on offer. A car that has been re-constructed from a small pile of remains is fine, as long as it is (made) known. Disclosure and obtained price, however, are on opposite sides, therefor knowledge is power.

Wether a car that was re-constructed from a pile (I say this without reference to any particular car) constitutes a Ferrari or not is the question. It was mentioned before, you end up with two or more cars with the same chassis numbers, the only reasson for that being the value of that number and it therefor lending the brand-name to the car. But what is it in essence? A replica? Nothing wrong with that either, AS LONG AS IT IS DISCLOSED.

 

Where do you draw the line? Lets say I go to the dump and find a mangled up Ferrari chassis with the data plate attached and it turns out it's a long lost GTO. I then spend $500k 'restoring' it (or send the hulk to Classiche). How is that car all of a sudden more valuable than a replica even though nothing left of it is original except for the data plate? Because of a bunch of numbers? I know this has happened, and usually the person is commended for 'saving' the particular car. But, it's not exactly how it was built in '62 and everyone knows it, and it's no more accurate than a good replica and possibly less so.

The value, for me, is the design and engineering that went into the car, not the data plate that was attached to it. If that's what you like, that's fine but I'd be perfectly happy with an exact replica minus the expensive numbers because it's the experience of the car I'm interested in, not the history of a particular example of that car. The 250 GTO is great because at the time, it was the benchmark in automotive engineering, and it was a long way ahead of the rest of the pack. That doesn't happen often, so it was a great car. However, the most valuable one (for me) would be the most advanced, with the most powerful engine, best aerodynamics and best overall performance. In reality, if that car crashed at the start of it's first race and never raced again, it would be one of the least valuable examples because it didn't end up winning 3 or 4 races and contribute to the world championship.

I'm not begrudging the people that value a car's history and provenance, that's fine and I admire that, it's just not what I value most. If you think I'm not a real Ferrari fan or don't have passion for the marque because I'd entertain owning a replica, that's fine and it's your opinion. I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth, it's just that I value a different aspect of the cars - the engineering and ultimately performance, which is what they were built for, after all.

Of course the replica builders that do it to turn a quick buck or pass themselves off as being something they're not give them a bad name. But the same can be said for certain 'collectors'...

This is a debate that will never be closed as you always will have differing opinions based on what you hold valuable. Of course we can agree on full disclosure and identification of the cars, though.

 

This is an email thread I sent to some friends....no flames please.....

OK. There is a lot of discussion regarding fakes, recreations, re
bodies, tribute models and continuation series cars. It is a long
winter and is a good time to get this on the table.

Over the years, I have been interested in some of these cars because
they often give you the styling and driving experience of what is
usually an unattainable original. The most interesting of these to me
has always been the 1957-59 Ferrari Testarossa or TRC. Not only is it
one of the most beautiful cars of all time, but I fear that I will never
have one at a cost of $10MM+. But, I can buy one with the same (or
similar) Ferrari engine, chassis, gearbox, wheels, gauges etc. It is
even titled as a Ferrari. Only the body is made by someone else. Heck,
Ferrari didn't even make the bodies back in the 50s, they were built by
Scaglietti. The bodies of the high quality DKs and others are as well
done as the original and they are in Aluminum. The driving experience
is said to be nearly the same and it is a real Ferrari, correct? No it
is a fake, because it is pretending to be something that it is not. And
putting together a bunch of period Ferrari parts on a new body, does n!
ot make
it real.

IMHO, real matters. If you don't think it does....ask yourself these
simple questions.

For very little money, you can buy a computer painted copy of a master's
painting (Monet, Renoir, Van Gogh etc.) that is indistinguishable from
its original. Art experts can only tell the difference after hours of
work with magnifying devices or carbon dating equipment. Would you go
to see one of these at the Art Institute?
Do you have one in your house now?

Cubic Zirconia. Again, indistinguishable from diamonds by the naked eye
by even trained jewelers. Did you buy one of these for your wife (don't
worry Bob, your secret is safe with me How would she react if she
found out her wedding ring was a CZ?


I could do the same exercise with fake Rolexs, breast implants (wait a
minute, those are ok), and other "recreations" but they lose much of
their appeal because again, real just matters.

So what is a fake and what is a "tribute", "continuation" or other? A
fake is something that is pretending to be something which it is not.
No amount of badges, original parts or beautiful body can make it less
of a fake.

So lets go through the cars we usually consider and play FAKE OR NO
FAKE....

Lets start with an easy one....

a Superformance Cobra.....
http://www.superformance.com/mkIII_360.aspx
It looks just like the original but better in most ways (better paint,
engine, brakes etc.). I believe they usually badged Cobra's.

Answer: BIG FAKE.


We did this one already, but the DK Engineering 1959 TRC
such as....
http://www.continentalautosports.com/inventory/details.aspx?id=NLIL0007.
5/c23564

looks and drives like the original. Great sounds. Ferrari title,
chassis, engine gearbox etc. Stunning in every way.

Answer: FAKE


Here is a tough one:

1986-1993 Autokraft Mark IV Cobra
http://rides.webshots.com/album/27420400JOvtHZcuia

Sold by Ford dealers. Looks mostly like the original with some updates
for DOT approval. Aluminum body. Ford 302 motor (derivative of the
original 289.

Answer: REAL.

Why real? Because it is not pretending to be something that it is not.
It looks different enough and was build by the same factory in England
as the original AC cars. This is a continuation series. They are not
the same as the original cars, but they are real.

What about the Sport Special by Creative Workshop, recently featured in
Autoweek.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/18/like-they-used-to-sport-speciale-by-t
he-creative-workshop/

Answer: REAL

How can this be? It looks like a 1957 Testarossa. Simple. Because
it is not saying that it is something that it is not. There are no
Ferrari badges anywhere. Anyone who know Ferraris, knows this is not a
TR, but clearly it was influenced by it. Ummmmmm, there are so many
cars in history that this would apply to. Heck, the original AC Cobra
looks suspiciously like the Ferrari 166/212 Barchetta. Yes, the Miata
was a dead ringer for the Lotus Elan. etc. etc. etc. Imitation is the
most sincere form of flattery, just as long as it does not claim to be
the original car.

Perhaps some people might believe that there are degrees of fakeness (ie
a Superformance Cobra is a big fake while a 59TRC by DK Engineering is
less so....and it costs over $300K, so it must be closer to the
original. To me this is like being partially pregnant. Granted a Dino
on a Fiero Chassis or a Daytona on a Corvette chassis is more of a kit
car for a high school kid but the others are just fakes. It does not
mean that they are not fun, or beautiful, or give you 99.99999999% of
the styling and driving experiences. They just aren't real.

It a long winter ahead....let the discussion start....

jts

As a footnote, for me, there is point which the style and driving
experience is at equilibrium with its price, but the current market is
far from that point. Some of these cars are being offered at higher
prices than the current flagship Ferrari 599GTB or a real Daytona or
Muira.

 

I just got an e-mail from Sheehan. $179,500 for a 6-cylinder 196S.

I'd be seriously be interested if the price were right.

And, the price should include the cost of putting the colors right. (Notice the red exhaust.)
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i have the last of these that was built (or do i????) and although mine lacks the red exhausts, it is a damn fun car to drive. you have to be very careful driving it (i damn near died two days ago when a lady on a cell phone driving a ford taurus u-turned in front of me and then stopped when she didn't have enough room to pull into the right lane), as most people don't see it or act like you are driving a ufo and stare rather than drive you have to be VERY careful driving a car like this.

the price???? ......in my opinion, it is a VERY well made vehicle. the finish is extremely nice, the mechanical aspects are well done, the look is nice (clearly not a great "recreation" of 0776) and as long as you don't try to falsify what it is, a fun car. i own several "real" dino's, so for me, this is a fun car that lets me pretend to relive an older age.

as long as you remember what you have and what you are experiencing, this car is, to quote "dr. who" - aka dale here on f-chat, "A hoot".

sure the market has changed, but based on my experience, this type of recreation is well made, drives great, and a lot of fun. the asking price may seem high, but you need to look at the car/replica/recreation in person before passing judgement. before you discount the "price" too much, i suggest you look at the actual car. it isn't fair to say that i would sell my dino before my 196s replica, as i own several dinos. however, i do have a dino for sale and it isn't the replica.....

 

CHF 1250000 = 811000 Euros, weren't these cars supposed to sell for millions?
http://www.autoscout24.ch/AS24Web/Detail.aspx?from=list&wl=1&lng=ger&id=5231810&qs=from%3dDefault%26cur%3dCHF%26pricefrom%3d300000%26zipcountry%3dCH%26total%3d238&page=3&row=1

 

Not when they are replicas.