Patina: what to preserve, what to re-do?

This is a great first person, eye-witness perspective.

To clarify, I would guess that when the car left the factory, all the metal finishes were bright and shiny and assuming the seats are leather, not fabric, were bright, clean and neat and new looking. Additionally single stage paint can be very bright, shiny and deep.

My point is, a restored vintage car, including a race car, can be bright, shiny, ultra clean and tidy and be correct, no?

-F

 

I can't speak to what custom finishes Ferrari may have provided for other customer/privateer race cars, but our seats are/were vinyl, not leather. I have seen snakeskin on a couple of race cars' seats that ended up in the Von Neuman/Ginther stable, but am not sure if that was the factory's doing, or if Josie got a wild hair . .

 

Thanks for your support Ed! Most, if not all the world would have forgotten along time ago if not for visionaries like yourself..... Best, Mike

PS. Just one other point I want to make about these earlier cars that I think should be addressed since we've been on this subject a while. There is no doubt that Enzo Ferrari was a "RACER" in the true sense of the word, and his race cars undeniably reflected that blinding passion. BUT, make no mistake, when it came to his road cars, especially the rare custom coach built models, form did not take a back seat to function in any way shape or form! He used the finest designers / coachbuilders of the day and created some of worlds most beautiful cars EVER built. In fact if one tracks all of the significant cars, be it pre war or post, Ferrari or otherwise, the one common trait that makes all of these cars so desireable is their looks, their form, their beauty! Ferrari's were not only meant to be driven, they were meant to be beautiful as well, and were purposely built with that in mind! Mike

 

Cutting to the chase Dino Competizione is the benchmark for 60ies show cars and it's much cruder than MANY cars on the lawn.

Some of her chassis tubes were painted with a brush, there's over spray, paint drips, her screw heads don't line up, she is asymmetrical, her headlight covers are over stretched in spots, I could go on and on.

 

Hi Jim, You no doubt have a time capsual car, and it is but one example of the quality of the day. Again, I support you 1000% for keeping her that way. I still would like to know when it comes to finally having to restore one of these cars, who will decide how many "runs" in the paint will be correct? where exactly should they be? on the nose? the sides? the bottom? Your car may have runs, but does that mean they all did? I think not. Every car built originally whether a comp car or road car was different, and every restoration whether a comp car or road car is different. Regards, Mike

 

My kind of car

 

This is why a car really can be original only once.

The production cars may not have as many defects as a one off show car but no doubt when the factory was more of a workshop, even the production cars had visual defects (dimples in the beaten panels, asymmetrical lines, orange peel).

These original defects can be "rubbed out" with a heavy handed restoration, to negative effect.

-F

 

Mike

Not only does PF know, they have a collection of original cars to compare to and voluminous records and photographs. They can restore any car they originally built to a VERY original standard. They are currently restoring several cars and IMO their rates are very competitive.

It will be interesting to see how the Judges react to one of their restorations which should happen this summer.

Should anyone be interested in considering this I can put them in touch.

Cheers

 

Once again, I feel I am being misunderstood. I feel that what many are looking at with these cars being restored, has nothing to do with quality. No one is questioning the quality of these restorations, they are questioning the "over" polishing, and "over" finishing of the machine.

There is no doubt that Rolls Royce of the past had stunningly beautiful paintwork. But that original paint is NOT two stage clear coat that have the appearance of ultra wet nail polish some of these vintage machines show today. The wheels of many old sports cars that were originally semi flat or flat finishes, have more often been polished to shine in ways they never were originally. Frames and underbody driveline components that were originally flatter black paints over semi rough finishes, are often sanded and primed and given so many coats of glossy black they shine like nothing ever before seen. Engines and gearboxes and associated aluminum castings and housings, even on many Vintage Ferrari's, have been sanded and etched and painted with wheel paint, so that it looks "perfect". Once again, this has nothing to do with quality workmanship, the work is stunning. Its just not "correct" as to how the cars were originally.

You are correct, one cannot just simply look at pictures in books all their lives and form a good reasonable opinion. But to assume that I have never looked at any of these cars in person in all my 50 years except in books, or that I have never seen or touched a vintage Rolls Royce, Bentley, Packard, Jag, Ferrari, Maserati, etc., in person in all that time is making a pretty big assumption But scroll up and look at the pictures of the older cars, and note the paint finish. If they were done up in two stage clear coat they would not look anything like they did originally, and the pictures themselves would still show it. You dont have to see the car in person to tell its been overcooked.

 

Question.
What should be awared more points a car with original factory trim perhaps with wear,paint loss ect on the seats oe a freshly trimed car?

 

I can see the art school instructor now, spray gun in hand, showing the noobs how to apply just the right "extra" amount of paint to a particular area, to create the "perfect" run. Right where you want it. Knowing the back angle and curvature, as well as the specific paint density aids in the approach to gaining the proper form and finish. Knowing how to "bend" the run, thats the mark of a true virtuoso.

It would prove quite interesting if they can restore a 50 year old car back to all its glory, right down to having the original paint formula, finish, and with paint runs duplicated in shape, size and location. Pretty funny to think people have to be taught how to perform perfect hack paint jobs.

 

With all due respect, your statements about 2 stage paint is just incorrect. It is correct as applied compared to laquers of the past, but not if color sanded and polshed properly. If I were to paint panels in nitrocellulose laquer, acrylic laquer, acrylic enamel, uretahane enamel, acrylic uretahane, single or 2 stage, they would all have variations in gloss and texture as sprayed. However, after proper color sanding and polishing the only variation would be in shade(black for example is different from one mfg. to another). The reflective qualities of each paint would be identicle, it's not from the paint, but from the surface texture itself. For those here who have done their own paint work, you will know that when an enamel or urethane single or 2 stage is applied, it has that "wet" lipstick shine. But you also know that when you polish properly, you actually take away that wet look and create a finish that looks just like a polished nitrocellulose laquer paint job. Mike

 

Hey Jim, That's perfect! they'll know exactly where to put those drips!!.......... Just kidding...... a little. Best, Mike

 

I think one problem with our judging systems is that it takes off points for the normal appearance of a car particularly an old Ferrari that has been driven not merely,rolled on and off the trailer. I applaud events such as Pebble that give points to cars that run on a tour but feel that this should be mandatory and not just used for a tie breaker.Lets not deduct for stone chips et al.

 

What do you mean this isn't original??......looks like shiny 'patina' to me
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We are talking about Concours car SHOWS right? Bring a SHOW car! You can see all the stone chipped, crude, used driven cars at any vintage race or informal club gathering you choose. Why is it that those who cannot for whatever reason bring a show car to a show, expect that they should be allowed to compete on an even playing field with cars that are show cars? I see no show cars at the vintage races expecting everyone to slow down so their cars don't get a stone chip. Each event is what it is, show or go, each has it's place and following.
Many shows have driven classes now so that those who wish to compete on that level may do so. Many shows now also have original, unrestored classes as well.

 

Kid all you want but now that people have the option to have Pininfarina restore their cars some may be interested in going down that road.

 

According to FCA judging, they encourage the cars to be driven and don't subtract points for wear. I presume this includes chips in the paint. I don't know what type of rules Pebble Beach uses.

Again, FCA deducts points based on originality. Whether that refers to an original part or just a part that is built under the original specification is open to debate. In the example above I think either the car with the new trim would have points (or a half point or whatever) deducted OR they would be seen as equal in the judges' eyes.

-F

 

Depends on the show. The 2008 FCA National Concours was looking for time capsules and had no Best Unrestored category. The Americana Manhasset concours has a Best Unrestored, but the entrant had better be something particularly rare. Some shows take points off then add back points for miles.

 

Jack,

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know what the original stitching materail was (someone here surely does) but I assume it was a natural fiber.

Does anyone know of a good place to send the leather for this process?

Thanks again.

Jack.

 

I think some of the problem is simply some cars are over loved , and can we really criticize and owner for that?

If I owned a 250LM or an Alfa Romeo 2900B, I would continually open the bonnet and clean her with a soft rag ... over time I guess I'd end up over polishing the engine or something, but not intensionally ...

I also would spend countless hours in my shed, running that rag over her or just staring, or preparing her for her next run. Atleast my wife would know where to find me .

I already sneak a few spare minutes in my shed, even when I haven't got enough time to do some work, just pondering the next phase of my Alfa 1750GTV's restoration. Will this car be over restored?, probably but the types of finishes will be correct AND she will be driven, and sometimes very bloody hard!
Pete

 

I've seen your work on the AlfaBB, Pete; you definitely know your way around a MIG welder. nice work and great project!

 

Thanks, comments appreciated .

Pete