599/430 Prices Crashing

Here's his blog if you're interested. Some good reading.


http://www.colonyinc.com/chairmanscornerblog.htm#112308

 

The summary of this thread is the summary of most market and their dynamics. The local data points when summed together make the (international) whole.

My interest in Italian and other exotics is/was driven by auto dealership clients who believed that the exotic rental business was finally making sense if the cars could be purchased at or below MRSP combined with taking advantage of a falling used car marketplace.

Putting that business model to the side, what we found out was no surprise, it has been encompassed in this thread. We saw local Ferrari dealers with low inventories on new cars, fearing (rightly) severe reductions in their allotments of new for 2009. They are holding on MSRP or MSRP +, one flat refused to sell a Scud at any price at this point in time (so he says). Some Ferrari dealers need floor cars, others aren't as concerned about "show" inventory, the latter being the ones with multiple lines of exotics (so it appears). Who knows which ones are being hard court pressed by their banks to ante up more cash and reduce their floor plan debt?

If you are a buyer, then look hard and in many places, show your cash or leverage your credibility, seriously think of auto-transporting a purchase. You'll find "deals" if that term is applicable to cars that cost $3+ to drive.

Better deals next year, I think so. If you are financially (decision) driven, wait. If not, after your own investigation, you can put a price point on your need for immediate gratification. LOL!

 

With your cars, you need one
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well, Jim. And the rest of the miscreants in this thread.

I do love old cars, miss having them, but had my fun. Little kids and work sap all available time, took days to reply. Still would like a 35B or J. A lot to be said about driving a slow car fast. Fast cars slow are boring. Old fast cars driven fast make you appreciate brakes that stop, radiators that cool, and the connected feeling manual everything gives you. Steering in Cal, SWB sublime, can drift at will, gearbox and clutch great if set up well.

2.4 Dino Fiat nice car, coupes are beautiful cars. I sniffed at a 2.0 that needed an engine (as usual with 2.0) for 2500 about 25 years ago. With engine and paint and...it would have been 12k. Pass. But it drove well. Blue carpets? Hmmm. 124 Abarth, Giulia Spiders, B24 also great for events, Abarth too new sadly.

Too few have been around the serious iron. Those that own usually don't drive them. Older road cars and new road cars about as close as most get. Glad to see the cars less of a commodity. All prices going to take a dump, cash is a good thing.

First thing I thought of after hearing jewelry comment was the California. A Ferrari Barbie SL AMG. Desperate Housewives meet world of no loaner cars and long parts waits. It'll go well. Luca and Alan both can screw-up.

L

 

In the last several days, TV has covered the warehousing of new cars(Jap, Euro, etc) at the Port of Long Beach. Requests from manufacturers for more acreage on which to store 'em.

In the early-mid 1970s, Ferrari warehoused 308GT4s in the U.S., cuz the energy crisis killed all sales.
Maybe today's 599GTBs will be the equivalent of Daytonas in the 1970s, which were available as
'new' for a couple/few years after manufacturing ceased, due to slow moving inventory.

Makes me wonder if the slowdown in Maranello going forward will be enough, or if maybe today, dealer
showrooms are where the warehousing will take place, not to mention at FNA headquarters.

I'd really like to see Daytonas & Dinos at some of the above speculated prices, as later in 2009,
-if- things work out, maybe I'd be able to pick up something.

 

Lest we forget........Ferrari also had to cut production way back in the early 90's. Think of 1993 when we got 100 348 speciales and a handful of TR's. The spider bumped things up some in 1994 but I remember them sitting on showroom floors in early 1996 offered at huge discounts.

Daytonas still aren't as high as they were in 89-90. Question is whether they will reach the lows of the mid-late 90's?

Dave

 

That Maserat on the internet has 48,000 miles on it and is a 2002. The one I have has 3500 miles on it and is a 2005 - it has never been in the rain and like all my cars is always coveered so we are talking apples and oranges. Saying that, I know it will still drop but it is my wifes car and I don't tell her the sky is falling so she is happy - it serves no purpose to tell ones wife how the cars values have fallen sometimes people don't need to much information

 

If you have ever tracked your Stadale you know what a blast they are to drive - had a blast running it at Sebring for two days - that is the true value of that car - whatever price it is

 

What you get for your cars is meaningless to me. I keep the cars out of the weather for my own enjoyment not because of resale - my cars are a hobby and I like them perfect - that is part of the whole gig

 

Don't delude yourself. If you have ever driven a supercar like the CS or F430 you should know that they operate on a totally different level. You don't even notice cars like the Miata when you're in a real supercar.

Trust me, I have driven thousands of miles on Europe's best roads and nothing, nothing even remotely keeps up with modern supercars in the curves as much as in the straights, except perhaps for the odd brave rider in a superbike. Miatas don't even get into the radar screen.

 

Delude? The poster you were responding was saying (I think) that a well set up Miata (think Spec Miata) could probably run with an F430 in the corners (presumably tight corners) on a track and I agree with that. Having driven my two 360's and one 430 on the track, as well as numerous other cars, and being an HPDE instructor at the local track, his statements mirror my experience. Now, on a mountain road (with things like big elevation changes, straights, and high speed corners) a Miata will get left in the dust. But on tight tracks I have seen well driven Miata's absolutely dust far more capable machinery.

If you have ever driven a Spec Miata on the track, I think you would understand what he is saying. I've driven both types of cars, and see his point.

Cheers--Scott

 

I definitely question your statement that carbon brakes are no better then iron - not true. I have a 430 with steel rotors and a CS with carbon and it will way out perfom the 430 in corners - unblievable difference - also no fade -van run all day while you have to take steel brakes off the track for cool down

 

Well, there is value to you... but not directly from the shoes. Buying a pair for your wife/girlfriend will make her feel X,Y, or Z. X, Y, or Z will then reflect on you positively. So to some people, even though there isn't and intrinsic shoe value-- there is value in purchasing the shoes.



X=happy
Y= fashionable/stylish
Z= better looking/more confident*


*I'm not making any implications or insinuations regarding the amount of good looks one's wife/girlfriend has.

 

I just had my F430 on the track (roughly 2-3 weeks ago) and the performance was a letdown. Even if it had more power, it's a very heavy car and you can tell. My guess is that the CS is certainly lighter but way underpowered.

I would absolutely not call the F430's performance a "different level". My Z06 is just as good if not marginally better.

As for Miatas, we are not talking about stock Miatas here. We are talking about track setup Miatas which you will not see on street roads.

 

although that wasn't addressed to me, i also think carbon is no better so i will respond.

as they come from the factory, the 430 iron brakes aren't super fantastic (as i now realize). i think they need more cooling. but with the right pad selection i think they will be much much better.

as for performance "in the corners", wrt brakes i suppose you mean "in the brake zone", and of course the CS will outperform ... it's lighter. it has nothing to do with being carbon. also, brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.

lastly, perhaps you don't realize that ALMS GT2 cars (Ferraris included) are required to run iron brakes. They run continuously for hours and hours ...

sure, carbon brakes are absolutely "better" but at the level of a street car you won't be able to tell and they are a big waste of money.

 

So when Ferrari made carbon brakes standard on the 430 they were just sticking it to the customer or actually improving the car? It should be said that the Ferrari carbon brakes are easier to modulate than the carbon brake system Lamborghini hangs on their cars. There is a benefit for those extra dollars...
CH

 

The cynical among us would say Ferrari was not selling enough CC brakes and so made them "standard" thus generating much more income per car. When I ordered my 430 in 2005, they were over 14K extra which added about 8% to the price of the car. The sales manager opined that they would bring little or no extra as used cars and further down the road may actually sell for a discount as buyers figure in their heads that they may soon need replacement at extremely high cost. Not many people ordered them in 2005. I like to watch used prices and from what I can tell, he was right about resale.

Dave

 

Hey, the Z06 IS a supercar, and a darn good one too. I'm not surprised it's as good as the F430. And no, I am still not convinced that a "Spec Miata" will keep up with an F430 on the track. For sure it won't keep up with any Ferrari on the mountain roads I'm used to...

Anyway, the lap times speak for themselves. A stock Gallardo and a stock Z06 will both lap Hockenheim (a tight track with many curves) in 1'11''8; an F430 in 1'12''7. Now, these are "supercar" lap times. Cars like the Miata 2.0 MZR will do it in 1'21''8. That's a full 10 seconds slower than a Gallardo/Z06. I seriously doubt that a Miata, no matter how extremely set up for the track, will ever get closer than 5-6 seconds per lap from any modern supercar.

Admittedly I have never driven the Spec Miata but I have driven cars like the Exige Cup with 260 HP and a very light body, and while it is very fast, even the little Lotus can't really beat a Gallardo on the track. So how could a Miata ever come close?

 

A good driver in a spec Miata will give trouble to a mediocre driver in Ferrari,it happens all the time during open track days.
Hence,some observers concluded(wrongly or naively) that Mazda is equal to Ferrari with just a few $$ spend in mods......

 

it also depends how much the ferrari guy want to risk or push his car, you can ball up a Miata or Lotus at about the cost of a set of Ferrari rims and a major service so who cares if its driven beyond the limit , Zo6s will get hot after several laps and need to be parked

 

i would have to agree. however, jimmy choo's are actually able to withstand quite a bit. manolo's tend to succumb to wear very quickly. not that i am a women's shoe guy, but trust me, i have done plenty of rationalising with my wife why old cars are better than great shoes.

i realise women don't keep shoes like we tend to keep classic cars, but jim is definitely right about the value point. a tremendous amount of money is spent in what i call subtle marketing.....ie- so and so was seen wearing x brand shoes (just look at people or us or whatever magazine). i can't say that i have ever been stricken by a car just because "jim" chose to drive it. guys are different than girls. long term value is definitely different than short term value.

jim, i am sad to say, that the cars you have aren't just cool because you have them. in fact i can testify that the dino was a dream of mine long beofre you liberated her. and although i admit i really love the looks of the p4/5, it isn't because you look so sexy driving her....

 

That is also true.....

 

I never said it would keep up, the question asked was which would be more fun.

Answer: spec miata.
Reason: it will corner better.