WHOA...Max has a good idea. Cosworth.

Ya have to figure Bernie or someone will pick up the Honda team. There's another team that will be looking for a relatively cheap engine. I know Ferrari or someone could supply, but really the backmarkers would be better off with an independent engine rather than getting the customer motors that ensure they remain backmarkers

 

Here's the important part. Yea not literally a spec engine, but:

This is almost worse. It's a slap in the face to anyone who really cares about what F1 is about.

And teams aren't allowed to use their own trans.

 

What is considered better performance? higher HP numbers? higher torque? ...what if for instance mclaren or ferrari develop an engine, produces EXACTLY the same numbers as the cosworth engine...only a couple of RPM earlier?

Its not a bad idea as such, it means teams with less money have more money to spend else where thus make them more competitive. What does STR pay annualy to use ferrari engines? 10 million?

 

The idea to have a somewhat independend company produce "cheap" engines for teams that can't afford their own engine development is great. However, ruling that the performance of that engine can not be exceeded is ridiculous....



(then again, it might provide some very interesting racing - the factory teams with the best overall cars, but underpowered engines, against worse cars with more horsepower...)

 

Isn't "somewhat independent" something of an oxymoron?

 

Goodbye F1. On the bright side, maybe someone will start up the can am again. No limits! Love to see the 1000+hp porsches pounding the pavement again.

 

Why?

This is actually a very good solution (it is no longer an idea, it has become fact today): Offer a cheap spec engine to the backmarker teams while the car manufacturers can still build their own engines. That is very much like it was in F1's "Golden Years" of the seventies with the Cossie for the "garagistes" and teams like Ferrari and Renault with their own engines.

Max did a good thing. I applaud him.

PS: As for the performance egality. To some degree we already have that now and look at the reality of things: Renault and Ferrari allegedly boosted their engines late this year with 20 hp. No problem with that.

 

I think it's a bit different. The development ban is not very clear from a technical point of view, and obviously has some sort of loopholes (see Ferrari and Renault). The new rule would, the way I understand it, state that the factory engines are not allowed to exceed the Cosworth engine in quantifiable limits. Judging whether changing an oil cooling system is necessary for safety reasons or a performance boost is difficult. Judging whether one engine has more horsepower than another one is a matter of comparing two numbers.

 

I tend to agree with WP on this one. Stifling development was never a part of F1. Times are changing. Hopefully in a few years something new will emerge that captures our total interest. Until then, it looks like I get to sleep in on Sundays again starting in 2010...

 

Correct it stinks IMO.

 

And the way I see it, any team NOT using a spec engine, apart from Ferrari that is appearing to have a fast race engine will immediately have Max and his hench men slam the car's engine into the scrap heap, on some made up lame pathetic made up ruling, it is IMO totally stifling any advancements in engineering, wrong wrong wrong.

 

No it isn't:

2009 will bring lots of restrictions and standardization of aeros to the car. So you could argue all those wind tunnels and CFD computers are now useless. But quite the opposite is true: They are no even more important to get that extra bit of aero advantage out of what is left.

The same will apply to spec engines. Maybe the FIA will measure hp output for each engine on a dyno. Fine, then the top teams will figure out how to gain some extra hp through exhaust systems or more efficient cooling etc.

Tightening up the rules on development is an ongoing battle in F1: It happened when they banned skirts. It happened when they banned turbos. It happened when they banned self adjusting suspension. The teams will always find new ways and a few years later the FIA will restrict that. This is nothing new nor different.

 

Yet again I see your valid points, however if we want to make the cars more efficient in this present climate, surely increasing the restrictions will only add to the cost of developing a advantage over your rival, by Max simply stating you will use a spec engine and whatever else Max decides to spec up, and it cannot be better, is wrong IMO. Plus the fact it gives him more power to fiddle with the results, as if it is not bad enough as it is.

 

F1 will be less expensive for the backmarker teams as they can simply purchase a Cosworth spec engine. That's a good thing and reminiscent of the seventies.

F1 costs will still be the same for the top teams developing their own engines. That's the price for a competitive advantage. Has always been that way. I don't think that's a bad thing actually and most FChatters would probably agree as the tone on here was always pro Ferrari and its financial might to out-engineer the rest.

 

Does anybody in this sport remember anything about the 70's and 80's??? Cosworth was the dominant engine, anyone could buy one, make a chassis, and go racing... you did not have to post $100 million bond etc... its just crazy now... F-1 has priced its self into a tiny box, and as the econonmy of the rest of the world slides into recession - deeper than now - F-1 is going to fade away. Mosley and Ecclestone are products of the 70's racing world... I'm just totally amazed that they have screwed up the sport the way they have. F-1 is dying!

 

It isn't.

This recession will be over eventually and there are plenty of folks left to pay for the tickets (something that always becomes painfully clear to me when I try to get GP tix and have to pay a huge fee to a broker to just get one). Also there are plenty of car manufacturers left to participate. Worst case Ferrari, Renault and McLaren use 3 cars. I wouldn't mind that sight at all.

Honda's departure is just another one in a long series of teams that come and go. Most likely the team will be at the first race in 2009 rebranded as something else.

Today's decision by the FIA to provide spec Cossies in 2010 is the first step in securing a full grid and I'm convinced it'll work.

PS: Since you bring up the past and wonder whether anybody remembers: Remember the FISA/FOCA war? We had races with a handful of cars. That was a true breaking point in the history of F1 and the powers that be got their act together for the sake of the sport. We are not even close to that neither today, nor tomorrow.

 

read this a week or so ago on crapwagon.com...could it be a recycling of these old engines?



Kalkoven and Co. stick it to ChampCar creditors again.

On Tuesday, an auction was held in Indianapolis to sell the 93 Cosworth engines that are the largest asset of the ChampCar estate. This auction was ordered by the judge after Ben Johnston negotiated for months with the Trustee and lawyers for the estate, and submitted a purchase offer of $250,000, which was recommended to the court by the Trustee and subject to approval by the Judge. The Judge called for an auction, presumably to ensure the maximum sale value for the asset, and held a hearing Nov 18th to establish certified bidders and several emerged, notably Aquarium, Inc, aka Kalkoven and Forsythe. That would be the same Kalkoven and Forsythe that bankrupted ChampCar in order to sell out to the IRL. And the same Kalkoven and Forsythe that own Cosworth, manufacturer of those engines that are the only valuable property of ChampCar remaining after it was
stripped by Kalkoven and Forsythe prior to declaring bankruptcy. Cosworth, interestingly, also has the largest creditor claim on the ChampCar assets for engine maintenance contracts. Maybe it’s just me, but how can a guy bankrupt a company, then come right back in and buy assets at the estate auction. Right pocket, left pocket, back pocket. Maybe it is legal, but it sure stinks. But that’s not the end of the story.

It seems that Aguarium upped the bid to $600,000 as a qualifying bid, and the stage was set for a bidding war between Johnston, Aguarium, and other qualified bidders. Johnston has publicly announced his intention to place those engines in the 26 ChampCar that he owns and start a new open wheel road racing series, that would run in conjunction with the Mazda Atlantic series, which Mr Johnston recently purchased after a protracted deal with, you guessed it, Kalkoven and Forsythe.

Mr. Johnston’s purchase contract was placed on public display on the internet for all other bidders to see. They were free to work together to pool funds and make a higher bid. There was no preference given to Mr. Johnston, in spite of his month’s long effort to execute the purchase agreement at terms suitable to the Trustee. In fact, the preference appeared to be given to anyone who would like to up the bid, with no public exposure identity or intent.

As a creditor of the ChampCar estate, I am personally delighted that the judge sought to maximize the sale value of the engines. The bidding on Tuesday would have quite possibly have reached into the millions, but that did not happen.

Mr. Johnston arrived at the assigned chamber in Indianapolis Southern District Court at 9:30 AM awaiting the 10:00 AM hearing that had been widely noticed and published on the internet and in court documents. But incredibly, the meeting time and location had been changed sometime since the hearing on Nov 18th. Not delayed or postponed with notice, but held earlier-- in a different location. Get the picture, the door opens down the hall and the attorney for the Trustee emerges to inform Mr. Johnston that the deal has already been done. No auction for Mr. Johnston, no additional bidding. Mr. Johnston never got the chance to bid on the very deal that he started. The creditors never got the chance to benefit from the bidding war that never happened. And the fans of ChampCar are once again abused by Kevin Kalkoven who walks away with the largest ChampCar asset for $600,000. But as owner of the largest creditor (Cosworth), he will likely receive the largest share of the $400,000 difference from Mr Johnstons original offer.

Right pocket, left pocket and who knows what other pockets. One thing is for sure, this process did not serve the interest of the ChampCar creditors. This was just another chapter in the ongoing story of Kalkoven’s abuse of open wheel racing, its employees, its fans, and those who already suffered at his hand.

 

I'm not sure about it all yet, while you do make alot of sense with your take on this outcome, I believe there is someone going to make a fast buck out of this somewhere, Kevin Kalkhoven co-founder of Champcar and current half owner of Cosworth has just purchased back 96 shiny new 2.8 litre turbocharged 750 bhp units from his former series at a bargain basement price and has no where to place them!!! and I don't trust porno Max, there are things not sitting quite right to me.

If either Max or Bernie had any forsight, this mess would not have arisen, but maybe that's what they wanted, I'm just not sure, A person that hands out 100mil fines is not a person IMO thinking of saving money for the good of us.

 

If bringing back turbo engines to F1 is your worst fear, then I'm all for it. And I'm sure Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari can dig up their old plans from that era as well (Mercedes would have to look at their Group C blue prints).

You can't expect either of them to have foreseen the subprime crisis. And in all fairness Mad Max was always bringing cost cutting proposals to the table (which most on here ridiculed, the speaking included). It was always the teams/manufacturers that wanted to continue the cost war. And as stated before, I'm fine with that, that's their right. F1 is not for the weak.

 

As said above, it seems that they want to standarize not just the design, but also the performance of the engines, therefore, there won´t be competitive advantage for anyone. Looks like a fix to keep all the car manufactures happy while making Formula 1 a "de facto" single engine formula.

I don´t like it.

 

This is exactly the problem, just as bad as a spec engine.

It's going to be interesting how they plan to quantify the performance cap with the advent of variable geometry turbo's. Same peak output, but potentially completely different power and tq curves.

 

No it isn't: There will be plenty of loopholes to find another technical advantage for the engine manufacturers.