308 V12 conversion begins | Page 73 | FerrariChat

308 V12 conversion begins

Discussion in '308/328' started by mk e, Oct 9, 2007.

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  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I do remember...and you were right, much better idea. Although with the 308 gear box at least I'll end up with a diff that will handle the power ;)
     
  2. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    How true, at least you won't hesitate to mash the throttle when you want.
     
  3. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

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    ZINGGGGGGG!!!! :D

    Mark, I want welding lessons from you, man!
     
  4. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

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    Mark, Did you weld inside and out on the bellhousing? Did you have to preheat or take any steps to minimize warping? Did you weld continuous or did you do small sections at a time jumping around? Thanks
     
  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I weld both sides any time I possibly can. The flange got 2 passes outside and 3 passes inside to get a decent shape, but 1 pass on each sid would have done for strength. I did preheat it as it reduces warping and make welding easier, particularly on think part like the flange. I also did all the outside welding with the part clamped to the table. I like to weld about 2-3 inches then move to a new spot, I don't know how much it helps but that's what I do.
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I didn't mean it that way, just more of at least there is a bright side to spending 2-3 year doing it this way instead of 2-3 months the other way.
     
  7. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1807 mk e, Dec 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Tonight's project was to plug the hole left by the clutch pivot boss removal. Welded inside and out and that pretty much completes the outside. The only outside thing left is to think a like bit more about exactly how I want to finish the 1 inch section where the flange meets the ribs on the bottom, I left some extra metal until I decide.

    Now on to the inside. Tomorrow I need to fix the idler gear boss then I need to install a filler piece to seal the trans oil from the clutch area. Getting close......I may even finish the welding this week.
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  8. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    Marvelous work, Mark, I continue to be almost speechless. But some observations. The fuel tanks seem even more in the way now than ever. There appears to be a great deal more room down in front of the engine, perhaps you could run a long tubular tank transversally up in front of the motor? It would give you some much needed space for your exhaust, and it could be almost the full width of the car to gain back some capacity. It would need to be very heavily baffled though

    Cams being chain driven, have you considered cam driven accessories such as alternator or water pump? The motor seems to have more room up high, perhaps that could give you more room down below for your sump scavenging pump? I am not a big fan of belt driven oil pumps either. But your are kinda squeezed for placing things anywhere you want, eh?
     
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    MKE,

    What kind of welder settings are you using? Just curious about how serious a TIG you would need to do welding like this.
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Why do all that work when a fuel cell could be put in front bonnet of the car and help the weight balance too? The bonus would be really nice aftermarket fuel pumps with delivery of what every flavor you want.
     
  11. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Can anyone recommend a good book or two about welding? I need a new reason to visit the ER. Local expert search turned up nothing. Visited an "expert" last year that didn't know the difference between MIG and TIG, and welded in a wife-beater tee shirt.

    Told him, "Erm..I'm no expert, but shouldn't you protect yourself fro.."

    "Nah," he said, interrupting me, "too hot outside now, plus I've been welding since I was 12."

    "Err...okie. Have a nice day."

    Me...backing slowly away from the scene...
     
  12. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    The fuel tanks are a bit in the way....mostly becasue I moved the engine forward 3 inches :(

    I'm good I think with the stock tanks. The front headers will have to come back high witgh one going over the bellhousing and the other where the nothc in the right tank is where the AC pump once sat. You're probably right that I but help myself, but I just don't even want to think about adding anyhting to the check list at this point.

    I could use the cams for accessories, hadn't thought about it. The only problem is the length , but maybe on the right side. I'll have to look at that.
     
  13. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    The last couple nights it's been set on 325 amps which is about as high as my torch will sustain. That flange in 1 x 1.5 and a great heat conductor which makes melting it hard. To weld just the 1/4 bell housing it self 250ish would probably be where I'd set the welder. For aluminum you need a weld with an AC setting and lots of amps, mine is a 400 amp unit I got on ebay for $1300 including a cooler for the water cooled torch. You are better off with a big old used welder than a cute new little welder for the same money if you can fit it in your shop, I don't even have to think about duty cyle with the monster I have.
     
  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    good point :)
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    The best and most up to date info comes from the welder manufactures I think....there is where I look when I have a question. Mostly the basic equipment and settings are pretty straight forward, the rest is practice. When I first bought a tig I was sure the machine was broken so I had a welder from work stop by.....who told me everything was set up right and the welder itself was one of the nicest machines he'd used and to go practice some more.
     
  16. regisgtb4

    regisgtb4 Formula Junior
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    Register and then look at the forums,tons of great instruction.My favorite is Tonys,worlds greatest welder,you can download lots of videos.Its also a great time to buy a tig on ebay,Id been shopping for 6 months and got my synchrowave351 this week for a grand.I have to add a chiller,thanks for the inspiration and advice Mke.
     
  17. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1817 mk e, Dec 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  18. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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  19. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Wow! that's a big monster and you got a great deal. My little sub 200A Miller TIG cost more than that. I'm good with steel but my Al skills still suck. I just need to put some time into it. I marvel at your skills and creativity. I'd like to see you and luckydynes get together. You mad scientists would be a hoot to watch and make an advanced diy'er like me seem like first graders.
     
  20. KKRace

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    #1820 KKRace, Dec 12, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2008
    Funny, when I first got my TIG it was brand new from Lincoln and I was sure it was working. I had a lot of experience welding steel but none with aluminum and all the people at Lincoln and friends at the local race shop kept telling me to practice more. I spent a year making piles of scrape metal. I finally talked one of them into letting me try their machine and had no problem. Turned out after the second trip to shop found Licoln figured out one of the SCR diodes was wired backwards from the factory. I was able to get the Lincoln rep to come to the house after the first trip to the repair center and he couldn't weld with it either.

    Lincoln has some schools that are supposed to be really good and are geared for car builders and race car fab. I've thought taking one of the classes myself. Also look at the local community colleges and adult education.
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #1821 mk e, Dec 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I finished filling the hole between the clutch area and drop gear/trans oil. I built up a little on the outside to make the shape match the block better and trimmed and blended the the flange ring into the case fins a bit better. I think it's ready to machine.
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  22. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    Only if you could have adapted a built Tremec 6-speed to it.
     
  23. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
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    These pieces look familiar somehow!
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Glad you could stop by and thanks for the many suggestions.

    And for everyone else, Wil told me he has a mini tig torch that should fit nicely in the ports that I can borrow....you know just in case I decide to mill the roof out of the ports and weld in a new roof 1/4" higher so I can get the cross sectional area the correct size to mathc the larger valves I'm putting in.....not that I would do anything silly like that, but just in case ;)

    We also has I nice talk about how to design a carbonfiber deck lid to be light, work with the stock hinges and latchs, and be much easier to remove and install.....again not that I would build anything like that, but just in case.

    The last actually really helpful bit was pointing out just how hard the stock 400 water pump is to service. Basically a waterpump problem means pulling the engine so it's actually a good thing thatI've decided to relocate it and install the return pump for the dry sump in it's place.

    Last was to look over the 360 engine parts sitting in my basement....it sure looks pretty easy to fit a 308 block with 360 crank, liners, and heads. That would be a cool set-up. The other option is use the whole 360 engine but the oil pump has to be relocated and adapters made to mount it to the 308 trans, not too bad, but using the 308 block seems easier for anyone plotting such a thing (Dave).


    In other news I've stuck a deal for the 360 oil pump so once the bellhousing and drop gears are done I can start installing it. It was a spare so Dave told me just use it and if he ever actually needs it then I owe him a pump...really nice of him.
     
  25. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Will you do my car next?
     

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