A question about maintenance.

"Ferrari" and "reasonable to maintain" should not be in the same sentence (unless you do the maintenance yourself).
Maintenance costs will largely depend on the condition the car you choose is in.
In general older cars like the Dino or 308 are less costly to maintain, less complex since lacking all the electronic gizmos later models are fitted with.
In case of catastrophic failure, often due to bad maintenance by incompetent mechanics, the Dino has the additional advantage of having a larger base for parts such as blocks, heads, etc. as compared to models that preceded it. The 308 also has a very large spares base.
Finally companies such as Superformance or Dino.de have remade a significant number of parts for both models.

In a nutshell if you can afford paying the (largely overpriced) current value, go for it and choose a healthy car from the mechanical standpoint ONLY if you know a mechanic that has the competence to work on it or if you are able to do this work yourself. Failing the affordability go for a carbed 308 that will procure similar excitement and better performance as it is a very close cousin.

These cars are very reliable if well maintained and need to be used to keep the "ugly" surprises away.

I hope this helps.

 

Boy, I'd have to disagree with that assessment.

I've owned a Dino, and now own a 360, maintenance costs to keep a Dino running great are significantly higher than the maintenance costs on my 360.

I bought my Dino (now UroTrash's Dino) broken. Really broken. I had Algar Ferrari rebuild the engine, gearbox, and just about every other moving part on the car. I'm not going to consider that "maintenance" for the sake of this discussion, although you might take notice that I "invested" over $30K in making my car right.

Once fixed, it still had plenty of routine maintenance. Twice a year visits to Algar to continue to tweak on the work we did along with repairs to additional items that failed or required adjustment along the way. Valves need to be adjusted regularly (well checked) carbs, once properly jetted and adjusted, seemed to settle down and remain in good tune, although I believe UT is going to get them tweaked this winter. Pulling the engine seemed to be the smartest way to do much of the engine service. My mechanic had it out three times, as I recall.

In what I would call routine maintenance for a 30+ year old car I probably spent $2K or more a year. That doesn't include the failure of the driver's side gas tank, the failure of the brake warning system, the cooling fans taking a dump... the list goes on and on. Ask Uro to post some of the repair bills if he wants to.

Granted, I'm a perfectionist when it comes to maintenance. I don't let ANYTHING go, that may have lead to some of the costs, but why have a car if you can't drive it whenever you want, and properly maintaining it is a big part of that picture.

My 360 required a major service and belts when I bought it Approx $4500 all in. It has had its annual service last month $500, in between? NADA. ZIP, zilch. cost per mile on the 360? I did the match in another thread and minus insurance came up under $2 per mile over a 3 year period.

Cost per mile on the Dino? Never did the math, but I'd guess more like $3-4 per mile with the same mileage factored in.

they aren't cheap to maintain. They're old cars, they break some. If you do your own work, sure you can run pretty cheap, but how many of us here can work on these beyond oil change? Not too many.

DM

 

So you're saying running a V6 (chain driven) with no electronics and fancy stuff is more expensive than running a V8 (belt driven) full of them (and made in Italy)?

 

My personal experience?

Yes.

Keeping a 30 year old carbed car running great is more expensive that keeping an 8 year old high horsepower belt driven electronic gizmoed car running great.

Now, remember I only have 1 year of the high end gizmo car vs. 5 years of the carbed car to compare to, so I guess there's a chance the 360 will BECOME more expensive, but so far? Not even close.

On a 30 year old car stuff breaks. It breaks regularly, and it breaks expensive. The parts for a Dino are expensive and sometimes hard to find. The parts for a 360 are VERY expensive, but plentiful, and I can buy many of them out of wrecked cars or on ebay, if necessary.

Tires? Let's talk tires. XWX from Coker? $400 each or more, right? Michelin Pilot SP2 for my 360, about $1100 for a set of four. And I betch I get more miles out of those Pilots than I got from the XWX. Even assuming you just swap them every five years I get away cheaper. Sure, you can hang some Sumitomos on the Dino for $90 a corner, and I can put some Kuhmos on the 360 for about $125 each, but them we're both just compromising, right?

Transmission. Suppose that Dino needs a rebuild? $5K? More? Doubt the 360 would cost any more than that, and I bet I could round up all the parts easier.

The list goes on and on. OH, I don't have an F1 in my 360, so there's no messy issue there with higher clutch wear and maintenance either.

I think anyone who thinks owning a 30 year old Ferrari is a cheap maintenance deal is in for a huge surprise. And not a good one, either.

So yes, what I'm saying is my 360 will be cheaper to maintain over a five year period than my Dino.

DM

 

And while I'm on the subject, look at the potential for parts failure.

30+ year old car vs 8 year old car.

Dino - Rust bucket. Even the good ones have some rust popping out unless you're lucky, or have had the car repainted correctly. the door design is a rust magnet, same with the wheel wells. and that's not a cheap repair. 360 - Aluminum all around.

how about insurance - that's about a break even, but I can drive my 360 as much as I want, my dino insurance limited me to 2500 miles a year. to buy up on miles would have mane the Dino more expensive.

What about stuff that breaks on a Dino and you can't find. The light stalk. If that goes, and they do, it's an expensive repair, and an almost impossible part to replace.

What about that back window? Mine's an off the shelf part, the Dino? GOOD LUCK. Oh, and it'll take a mechanic what 6 hours to R&R, maybe more?

Books, tools, seatbelts, all kinds of stuff are hard to get and expensive if you want it to be right.

GOOD GRIEF, what was I thinking when I bought a Dino?? I was thinking, THIS CAR IS BEAUTIFUL, THERE'S NO OTHER CAR ON THE PLANET THAT LOOKS THIS GOOD, I DON'T GIVE A **** HOW MUCH IT COSTS TO DRIVE, I HAVE TO HAVE IT.

Dave

 

I think you're mixing up a lot of different subjects here and you're somewhat biased.
I won't go through everything but you can't be serious about tires for instance. The 360 will eat them away in 3K miles, you can run the XWX (I wouldn't since they're not better than foorballs and have 12 of them brand new in the garage right now) for what? 20K miles at least.

In any case nothing serious breaks on 246s unless you break it. How would you break the rear window? Trying to fit you skis on the way to Aspen? Come on.
Maintenance only is way cheaper on the old (real?) Ferraris. Break and fix, I'm sure, also in most cases and have lots of testimonies around of horrid stories on later cars.
Finally common sense: What would you do with your 400 whatever bhp car on today's roads? Get the Dino and laugh your heart out watching all the boys that see the prices tumble on their toys while you hear these six throats sucking the air in.

 

I'm reluctant to get in the middle of what is probably a no-win argument.

While an old car from the 70's is less complicated than one from the current century and doesn't have those much maligned timing belts that everyone seems to whine about, simply because of age it is infinitely more prone to breakdown and keep you busy fixing 35 year old stuff.

There are lots of variables and your experience might be better than someone else but in my opinion you would not buy an old car merely to save money on maintenance.

 

Short answer: if you're not prepared to spend $10k at any given moment for repairs or maintenance or can't afford it, Ferrari ownership is not for you.

Yes, some models can be more or less than that, but if you can't spend that amount, don't buy.

If you can spend it, dive in, drive the hell out of it and have fun.

 

Biased? Geez, I missed that. I am completely biased. I loved that Dino like no car I've ever owned. Ask it's current owner if it didn't arrive to him in better shape than his brand new Volkswagen. I am a Dino NUT, but I'm also a realist.

Do you own a 360? Mine has 10K miles on the rears, and they'll be good 'till spring, same with the front tires. 20K miles for most Dino guys is 10 years. Can't drive a set of tires for 10 years without risking life and limb, so there's certainly a comparison there for me.

As far as I'm concerned, anything you spend to keep the car on the road is maintenance. Anyone who argues that a 30+ year old car, drive equal miles as a modern Ferrari is cheaper to maintain is delusional, it just isn't so. And it's not just stuff YOU break. Stuff breaks. And a 30 year old stressed part is gonna break sooner than an 8 year old, modern manufacture part.

As to common sense, there's no common sense associated with owning ANY Ferrari, so let's toss that one out the door right now.

Deprecation? Ask anyone who bought an older Ferrari in great condition last year if it's worth more this year, just like the newer cars. I'm off maybe 20% from my purchase price of a year ago. I'd argue that anyone who bought a Dino a year ago is in about the same position.

It's apples and oranges anyway. Dino vs 360? No comparison. Each has its charms and its flaws.

Dave

 

2NA - you've got it right...there is no way to win in this debate.

That said, maintenance on my Dinos during the past 30 years has cost me, hummm....., let me think, maybe $500 U.S. Yes, that's $500. Without any extra zeros. And this is for three Dinos!

First, I spent a fair amount of money making them right at the get go. I love doing the work and I sleep well knowing that I've done it correctly. You can either purchase a low-end car and invest the money up front, or pay premium dollar for a car that has had one of this group do it right. Depends on who you trust more. I would trust the group on F-Chat. I trust myself. Take your pick.

Second, once restored (mechanicals), how many miles do you think you will put on the engine each year? Even in 1972 these engines were built for 100,000+ miles before major work. At my rate of annual mileage, this will take me and my children and my grandchildren to accomplish. With a few exceptions, engines do not deteriorate with time. Hoses and belts, yes. Belts less so than hoses. The only mileage-related wear is found in the valve spacer shims and the cam lobes. Attention to maintenance every 7,500 miles and these parts will last the life of the engine. The trouble is few see to shim replacement at this interval. I anticipate 5 years worth of driving for each look under the cam covers.

Third, I do not drive my car hard. I enjoy the aesthetics, the rarity, the engineering, etc. If I want to drive fast I go down to the local indoor go-kart track. Tires, therefore, last me a decade at a minimum. Do they get hard...yes? Do I care? No. I'm not driving the car at 160 kph. If I want to make the tires look good, I treat them. The car is light. I'm not worried about tire failure. I don't worry about traction of hard rubber in the rain. I don't track the car.

Fourth, I posit that 90% of the dollars spent on our collective Dinos are for things unnecessary. For example, new carpets because there is a stain. New steering column stalk because of rust on the handle or a crack in the plastic. New alternator to put out more current. New chrome because of some spotting or chipping. New wheel paint because of a curb scratch. Period correct tires. Finding the correct radio. Etc., etc. I urge that you consider these dollars as restoration or feel-good, not maintenance. Oh, and by the way, I would like to meet the marketing expert at the oil company that somehow convinced this intelligent group that it is necessary to change your oil every 6 months, or year, or 4 years. I HAVE YET TO SEE AN ENGINE FAIL FOR LACK OF FREQUENT OIL CHANGES! Sure makes us feel good, clean oil and all. MY Lexus has 150,000 miles. I change the oil every 10,000 miles whether it needs it or not. I don't hear pistons slapping or rods knocking. Maybe I have been changing the oil too frequently?

The point is, if one buys a good example at the start, or considers the investment in a dog with money aside for initial restoration, then drives the car as a 35-year old car should be driven...with pride and care...then maintenance is minimal. I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that we lose track of the minimal number of miles that these cars are driven. Once right, these cars will provide many years of pleasure at minimal cost.

Jim S.

 

having owned a 360, a 308 and a dino, we must consider what is being said. there is a huge difference between a 360 and a dino. 25 years worth of technology is amazing. if something goes wrong with a 360, it will be expensive to fix. if something goes wrong with a dino, it depends on how much rigging had been done previously to the car and what level of desire you have to get it right.

other than "special" parts that are rare and unobtainable, a 308 is no cheaper to maintain than a dino. if you get a 308 qv, that might not be true, but from my experiance, if you have a dino that hasn't been messed with too much and had shortcuts taken in the past to quicken the repair time or reduce the repair costs, they are plenty reliable cars that just need to tuned every once in a while.

once a 360 starts to have problems, look out. try finding some parts for a testarossa, you would think it would be easy. the costs will blow your eyes out the back of your head. oddly, dino parts are more common and less expensive. once a car becomes 10 years old, the manufacturer doesn't have to supply parts any longer. the dino has already been there and done that. the only thing looking bright on that horizon for the 360 is how many of them they made.

don't think i am knocking the 360, i love mine. haven't really had much interest in trading it for something else, fortunately for me as i couldn't trade up anyway. it is a great car that has awesome performance, great reliability, and even better creature comforts. the dino is just a completely different animal. climbing into the dino and starting it up is a much different sensation than a 360. not that one is better than the other - they are just very different. if i could only chose one, i would chose the dino. the 360 is growing older and service costs will start to become a bigger issue. i don't think you will find much difference in the costs between running a dino and a 360 for the average casual driver.

 

It's difficult to say anything here without getting in the middle of all of what has been stated before, but I know that one car doesn't speak for the entire lot... especially a car that was bought "really broken" as compared with the same type car which was maintained from the begining.

I don't own a 246. I wish I did. I have an unrestored 308 in top physical and mechanical condition from the gitgo, and it is low maintenance all the way. It's insured as a regular driver with no mileage restrictions because the cost is minimal since I have a good driving record, and it is parked in my secured garage.

As for the 246, it is really climbing in value and holding steady in this economy. Fortunately, most of the 246's have been separated good from bad, and the bad are now parts cars, or not sold as complete running vehicles. The 308's aren't separated yet, and the market is seeing many of the bad cars being sold as good cars at low prices.

My advice would be to find a few good Ferrari shops, and ask them about the maintenance on a 246. You'll have a golden opportunity to meet 246 and 308 owners there, so take advantage of talking with them in person about the costs. Of course, not all cars are alike, so you will get different stories (like you did here).

When you are ready, get a full PPI done on any car you are seriously interested in purchasing, and my personal advice is to buy a car that has been maintained properly from the begining.

 

M Solo,

Lot's of interesting and useful info exchanged here. I have owned my 1977 308 GTB since 1990 which now has 35K miles on it. I just took delivery of a 2000 360 Modena and plan on selling the 308. If you are considering a nice 308 and are interested let me know and I'll send you more info and photo's.

Fred

 

M Solo,

I think we need more information to give you a meaningful answer.
Do you want a car you can drive from Los Angeles to San Francisco and back once a month?
One you plan to take out and go 150mph and hope you don't lose your license?
One you want mainly to enjoy looking at and only drive enough to keep it healthy?

I have had my Dino for 21 years. Total repair costs= clutch + alternator + muffler + 1 caliper + 1 rotor + rebuild brake booster + (non-XWX) tires= about $6-7K. I do the fluid changes and other little stuff myself.

My understanding is that a 360 needs to have it belt replaced every 3 yrs even if it doesn't turn a wheel at about $5K-- so 7 x 5K = $35K just for that in 21 yrs.
That's a deal breaker for me.

Jim

 

I have no desire to own a 308 or newer Ferrari. Thanks to the generosity of a friend who has owned 15 Ferraris (starting with a Dino), I have had the opportunity to drive a 308, a 512 Boxer, a Testarossa, an F355, two 360s, two F430s, and others. The belt situation bothers me from a number of perspectives, and, particularly since I don't put a lot of miles on my Dinos, is a turnoff for me. Mind you, having restored one of my Dinos extensively, I don't think that I'd want to buy another at this stage of my life. I would compare this to the attitude of people who have had their dream homes built. One time will do just fine, thank you. Having said all that, and having owned Dinos since 1976, there's nothing like them, on so many levels. I'm just so grateful that I "jumped in" when I did! Fred

 

Indeed, Dino owners (at least, virtually all) are Dino lovers w/ deep respect and appreciation of what they have. Great to know that Dinos are in good hands. w/ smiles Jimmy

 

For reference, a major service is about $4500. Belt service is $3K to $3500, and maybe less at an independent. Major once every 5 yrs, belts every 3, at least according to the factory. there are tons of threads here that tout different intervals for belts.

D

 

I would like to add that some of your expense is also going to be related to how familiar your tech is with a Dino vs. 360. There are a lot of great techs that have not spent too much time on older models. I have known techs to eat up a lot of time and money misdiagnosising through process of elimination rather than knowing what the issue if to begin with.