"Joe needs to declare himself the new boss of the East Coast and be done with it. " Frank that's the point, Joe runs a car show here and no portion of any club. At this point I don't think he even wants to. Frankly, Maserati is one of the smaller portions of this event. He's very busy these days with 3 shows to do. Everyone should just come to the events and enjoy themselves. We have two very warm, friendly and fanatic Maserati fans running the two chapters of MCI here. I can see no rational reason for people to not attend MCI associated events. You don't even have to meet Joe at his show if you don't want to. He's usually too busy. The dispute has always been over two competing events. Everyone here knows that. It's unfortunate that Maserati club people decided to boycott one or the other. I was due to attend both this year with my track car and because of an incident at the track I ended up not going to either track event. TMC NE has done nothing to alleviate this situation, quite the opposite. The "step down" in management at TMC appears to have been a sham here in the NE. But ... we live in hope. Bob S.
OK I get it, Never mind. Joe your out. Sounds like we need a new Messiah, - The Dear Leader - to lead the gentle flock to the promised land. FGM
Well when AL Gore's son was arrested for doin' 100 in Pious on a LA freeway a while back his sis bailed him out and picked him up in Quattroporte. I had no idea they were a hydrid did you? So maybe Al could serve as out "dear leader" or even as a moderator here? Bob S.
Bob... Thank you for the kind words... I am looking at my schedule, and if it permits, I will be up there in Pocono, with or without (Marc will love this), my gorgeous US bumpered Khamsin (but, of course, I'm prejudiced towards the car)! I almost attended the year Doug Magnon was there... We even discussed it, but, due to prior commitments, TMC events, etc.. I couldn't make it... The more we trash, thrash, and basically hammer each other, the less we will ever be able to come together! When we mutually cooperate, things can/will improve... Regardless of club affiliation, we all are still Maserati owners... From my viewpoint, and as far as TMC:Southeast is concerned, new, old, former, future, club, other club, or non-club Maserati owners/enthusiast are welcome and should be encouraged to attend any and all events! Unfortunately, since this thread deteriorated from its original intent (making this forum more friendly to its participants), and I assume some blame, I will recuse myself from this thread! I will, of course, look forward to whatever comes of it and shall always try to be encouraging! Mike D. (owner of 7 Maserati cars)
Actually the thread hasn't deteriorated from its original intent, but mirrors the division that has happened in the Maserati Community, which is why I voted against splitting the forum. Mike, I like what you are trying to do in the Southeast, that is also what Doug has done in SoCal. You are acting as independent Maserati clubs without a National Structure, taking steps away from "Bady Doc President for Life". I don't see any of the other chapters of the TMC Confederation doing anything. Of course its hard to tell, as you call it the "International" website doesn't even provide a link to the Southeast Chapter website that you posted here. So who knows maybe the other Confederation chapters have their own sites too? A framework was sent to you 2 years ago to merge the two clubs that protected the independence of each chapter but kept the unified image as one. Everyone knows where (who) the problem is, that has kept the clubs apart. As long the few (two) active chapters continue to support it, there will always be division. Two to the back of the head and send it to sleep with Fredo. Come help us form a viable unified active Maserati community. If former members of Warsaw Pac Confederation can leave and join NATO, it can't be that difficult. Joe
First I was never interested in being the Capo di tutti Capi on the East Coast. However I knew after one conversation with the self proclaimed "Mr. Maserati" that he was going to destroy the Maserati community in his quest for power and personal glorification. Others soon found that out as well as all the long time Maserati GT owners dropped out of the club. My interests were actually always in getting out more owners to events. Not just Maseratis but any and all Italian cars. There are more cars in the Northeast than any other geographic area, even California. The problem has always been getting them to turn out. I wanted to go to an event with great Italian cars that I could take my cars to every year. Besides did you ever eat what they try to pass off as Italian food in California? As far as interest from the manufacturers in vintage cars that is somewhat changing, after a few false starts vintage certification programs are becoming a new revenue source for the manufacturers. Ferrari's Classiche program has become very successful for them. Having passed their certification has added a perceived value to the cars, which has been helped by the annual Auction in Maranello where every car for sale must be certified. It has also expanded income for factory restorations and new parts sales for vintage cars. While not on the same scale as Ferrari's Classiche program, a recent thread on the VLG (Vintage Lamborghini Garage) covered how the factory is quietly making parts for vintage cars again. Maserati did somewhat attempt something similar years ago, but it didn't get off the ground. Now with the successful business model set by Ferrari, I would suspect that when things turn around you will begin to see interest in a Maserati version of the program. Joe
BTW it would not bother me in the slightest if there was a separate section for every single Maserati model made. I would not see this as a detriment at all. Working your way through the model menu, then to a technical section would be a piece of cake. That should not be a challenge for anyone. Browsing through all the models in an organized manner would work for me. All the club warfare is not even an issue for me, it's a waste of time, and works to every one's detriment, period. Sounds like too much old blood/bad blood. It's time for newblood. I'm a newblood, and frankly I don't have the time for petty fussing. Forget about the bickering, and who said/did what to whom 30 years ago. The new bloods are here and growing. So it's time to get on board and ride the new train. Ciao, George
When we saved the Pocono event, the first thing we did was resign all our positions on the boards of the clubs. (I was on the Board of Directors of the Maserati Club of America along with co-event organizer Cliff Plavin, I was also VP of the Eastern Pantera Association). We also did not renew our memberships in any of the clubs that were participating in the event as not to appear bias toward any particular club. Because of the history of the event with its various club influences, one of the rules for anyone involved in organizing the event was we were not permitted to be a member of any club. The one thing that always showed that TMC was not about Maseratis but and I quote "My view of Maserati" was the fact their members never knew about the largest gathering in over 40 years of the most revered Maserati in history the 450S or for the first time since 1948 that all 3 Maserati 8CTF were together featuring the 1939 and 40 Indy 500 winning car straight from the Speedway Museum. Or that last year for the first time in history an example of every Tipo Birdcage was on display. Even the factory never had all those cars together. But TMC members were never told that it even took place yet alone happened less than 100 miles from the "International" headquarters. Whither you like me personally or not has nothing to do with it, either the club is about Maserati or it is about one individual and his personality cult. In 90% of the coverage on the event, I don't get mentioned and that is fine with me. I really don't give a @*&%, ask Dennis Gage from My Classic Car how hard it was to trap me into going on camera about the event. My satisfaction comes from having people enjoy seeing what we've worked hard to put together and if no one knows I was involved, so what. Joe Oh yea there is one other thing I get out of it, I now have the perfect excuse for owning Maseratis, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Iso Rivolta. But honey if I don't own at least one of each marque their club will feel insulted and not want to come to the event. This way they feel that I'm an owner just like them and I appreciate their cars.
Well said Joe, very compelling and telling. It is fun to see how the event Janet and I started way back in 1981 at Buck Hills Falls Penn. 1982 in Great Gorge NJ and 1983 in New Hope Penn. has grown and matured under your leadership. My sincere congratsulations. We did three east coast meets and then through in the towel as too expensive and not enough turn out. Unprofititable. This lead to "Papa Doc" Steven James seizing on our coattails and establishing or reestablishing the MCA and putting on his own event which now had a following. Again correct me if i am wrong but this club event flopped around until the advent of "baby Doc" and then well we all know. Perdiction. There will be no reconsilation as long a regional strong men hold court over their respective fiefdoms. But on the other hand 95% of the owners don't care and will go to, and support an event if it is in their interest (not their club ) and fits in with their schedule and financial expectations. We proved that when we fired the FCA Pacific region. The announced a boycott of our event, but that year more Ferraris than ever before attended while 9 Ferraris were counted at the sponsored event in Pacific grove. This proved that owners go where they want NOT where a Club tells them to go. Good luck, Ciao, FGM 107.034 former Corvetto Quattroporte 107 1448 The Grey Ghost 360 Spider Manual
George, You don't live in the north east. You just don't know. But ... everywhere else people seem to be doing fine so enjoy! I agree it's not really an issue for you except ... The aforementioned problem still atop of the TMC organization, prominetly and vehemently opposes any sort of reconciliation. It's a small club but with such a small turnout of Maseratis at events here (even before this disturbance) we don't really need that sort of an attitude. Seems like an easy solution to me. Bob S.
The event started in the mid 80's by MCA under Papa Doc; it had to borrow $10,000 the first year from the Ferrari Club to pay its bills. The event began to build in the late 80's into the early 90's. However problems began to develop within MCA with Papa Doc which came to a head at the event when a member (who shall remain nameless ) at the annual members meeting put Papa Doc on the spot about how the club was being managed and its financial accounting methods. (In other words as a non-profit club, there were none). Papa Doc was called upon to resign, inspired by that, within a month members of the Board of Directors finally grew a spine to removed Papa Doc. Part of the settlement was that Papa Doc was permitted to retain control of the annual Pocono event. With Harvey Goldberg as President new members were added to the Board of MCA over the next few years which included the nameless person that inspired the coup that lead to the down fall of Papa Doc and along with unfortunately Baby Doc as well. Papa Doc continued to run the Pocono event for the next few years as it began to slide down hill, Pocono Raceway grew increasing unhappy with him and repeatedly asked the MCA Board to take over the contract. While a couple members of the Board voted in favor of it, the majority were against it including President Harvey Goldberg and Baby Doc citing the amount of work involved and cost of doing the event. When Pocono Raceway had finally had enough of Papa Doc, MCA was asked one last time to take over the contract. Since MCA was against doing it on its own an attempt was made to partner with the Eastern Pantera Assoc. to jointly host the event. EPA President Joe Moore attended an MCA Board Meeting where he along with Harvey Goldberg, Baby Doc and others all voted against taking over the contract and to let the event die. Two Board members that voted in favor of it, decided to partner together and finance the event out of the own pocket to save it, running it as a private business without financial support from the clubs. At the next MCA Board meeting (Held on Long Island on a Tuesday evening at the home of Board members Stan & Lori Stern) Harvey Goldberg announced that he was stepping down as President and that Baby Doc would be replacing him without an election. This was done with Board approval at a meeting when it was known that Board members that would oppose such an appointment would not be attending. Ignoring the warnings that all the years of hard work spent trying to get rid of Papa Doc were wasted with the appointment of Baby Doc, the Board let Baby Doc take control. Within a year Baby Doc not only seized control of the club publication, but its treasury as well. As the first Pocono event under our ownership approached, Baby Doc started demanding a number of Freebies (room, meals etc.) for himself as well as kickbacks on club members attending the event. When we refused, he changed our registration form to have all the MCA members funds sent to him. Threatening to withhold them until we agreed to his terms. However, he failed to notice that a late fee applied to all registration received after a certain date. Passing that deadline he was forced to pay the late fees out of the club treasury or explain to members why they would not have been admitted to the event they thought they had paid to attend. The Maserati owner involvement grew over the next couple of years mostly due to the participation from the Canadian chapter of TMC. As the value of the Canadian dollar dropped and with changes in the chapter leadership they stopped making the 300 mile drive to the event. As a result the Maserati attendance dropped to the point where more Iso Rivoltas were showing up than Maseratis. In a few short years, Baby Doc had taken the Maserati presence at the event from the 2nd largest (next to Ferrari) to less that of a club for a manufacturer that produced less than 1,700 cars in its history. It was at that point that we invited MCI to participate. In the first year MCI under Carl & Cecil Cannels double the number of Maseratis at the event. The next year TMC pulled out to start its own Pocono event partnered with guess who? Joe Moore and the Eastern Pantera Assoc. That's right the two people that voted against the clubs taking over the event from Papa Doc now wanted to undermine those that risked their own money to save the event. Not wanting to actually take the risk themselves, they used their club's treasury to fund their business venture, that way they still got all their freebies. Within a few years it was obvious that Baby Doc would be no more successful in bringing out Maseratis for their event than he was for ours. Joe Moore was kicked out of EPA for various reasons mostly related to activities surrounding the Pocono events and had to start a new chapter of the Pantera club to legitimize his efforts. One of the Regional Directors of the Ferrari Club that had partnered with them resigned in disgrace over his activities related to their attempt to undermine our event. Unlike Baby Doc and the disgraced Regional Director of FCA, Joe Moore is a doer not a talker. His event has been successful but not in the area he originally planned. In order to secure a track date at Pocono Raceway, Joe had to partner with the Corvette club. The event has gone more in the direction of an All American Shoot Out on Memorial Day weekend than Italian based event. The majority of cars are Corvettes and Vipers with more Mustangs and Camaros showing up each year. The Ferrari presence is dropping with the Pantera involvement holding steady (there is a strong Mustang connection with the Pantera owners) Lamborghini and Maserati turnout is less than the inventory at most dealerships. A few Jags do show up but barely worth mentioning. While our event has grown in all areas; last year for the first time it past Concorso Italiano in the number of Lamborghinis in attendance. The event has become the Cavallino Classic for Maserati with fabulous displays of historic Maseratis from as far back as 1928. The rides for Charity at Pocono Raceway in a new Lamborghini with a Factory Test Driver has been widely acclaimed by all. It also hosts the East Coast Annual Meet for the Iso Bizzarrini Owners Club and is one of the largest Ferrari track event in the country. Joe Khamsin #1226 Car and Driver Test Car Ghibli SS #2110 Mistral #1216 NY Autoshow car Islero #6243 Lele Marlboro #184 Geneva Showcar ex Howden Ganley Mondial Cab #49713
Guys... I know I said I wouldn't post here anymore, but I couldn't help myself!!! Bob S.... Good one on the 'ointment'...Brought a real smile to my face!!! I don't think we have a thread on the GOC... I for one would love to read about what your up to with the car...Especially, if you inject some humor into it! But seriously, give it some consideration, pictures, upgrades you are considering could help all of us out (maybe!)... Mike D. (LHM - slippery stuff, ruined my clothes, didn't solve the issue, wife not amused!)
MY God Joe, what a tale. Papa Doc, Baby Doc, resignations and expulsions. This sit com is worthy of a Banana Republic. But when dealing with Clubs thats just the way it goes. I am so glad we only did three years and removed ourselves from the mess to come. Good luck and hope you enjoy our Balsamic. Ciao, FGM
Hell, that was only the mild stuff, it got much worse. Ask Staaterman about his first year at the event with his Bora, when he was told by Baby Doc that unless he joined TMC. He could not win a trophy at our event. Now here's the good part, we paid for the trophies not Baby Doc and TMC. We found out he did something similar the year before when Nick Soprano was at the event with his 450S. Not a member of his club so it can't win a trophy. Or the EPA President getting caught changing the judging scores so he could win all the major trophies for Panteras. Then there was the time we threw out the entire Ferrari Club because of the actions of the last Director of the Old Northeast Region. Which resulted in a Regional Director from outside the area along with his wife who was on the National Board came in and ran the Ferrari portion of the event. (There are some really good people in the Ferrari Club). The end result was that Director and half the Board of Directors were kicked out of the Ferrari Club. The Northeast Region (Largest in FCA) split apart into 3 separate regions. There is so much more. It got to be a game of guessing who was going to be the A@$ Hole this year? We naively thought that everyone would be grateful to us for saving the event. We were instead greeted with everyone's hand out. Joe
I swear this thread just startd out with a few people like me wanting a locked in permanent thread for tech tips so we could find it easier on the blog. General discussions could and still should be left as a open forum. I would think that even if tech related threads were posted on the general forum they could be copied/& or moved to the tech section for future reference. WOW! Ok my two cents since were all spouting off. I host a Cars & Coffee during the summer here in Oregon and make it a point to invite every club and purposely don't allow differnent clubs & type of cars to congregate so people naturally interact with others from all types. We only have ours once a month so it won't interfer with other club events and have found that most of the people show to this more than they do to their own club events due partly because of all the inter club bickering that tends to always show it's face. After all, car guys are car guys and part of the fun is learning and experiencing different makes and generations of those make. Vette guy becomes a Porsche guy who one day gets into Italian exotics. I like them all! (except the kids rice burners, but I can even respect what they do to their cars a little)
This is much more fun than the tech stuff. I say let it all come out, and why not here. Just my 2cents Ciao, FGM
That's right Wayne you are Spot On! A thread was started in the Southeast Section about starting another Ferrari Club in the Atlanta area. The consensus was a resounding NO! We, as you Wayne, have a group of folks with very cool cars, Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Porsche, BMW, Lotus, Viper to name a few. We take spirited mountain drives, go to wineries, and do car shows. No leader, no nothing [I know - double negative ...just call it vernacular OK] it is guided by group consensus....in biological terms - Swarm Intelligence. Works pretty well, I must say, and it's all in my backyard. Well, not literally mind you, but you get the idea. Ciao, George
Frank, we have plenty of room for both. We need a tech section for the gear heads. We can have a section called Maserati Politics for the politic meisters too. Ciao, George
I knew there was a good reason why I do not get involved in club politics As was mentioned, members are more interested in the activities and less interested in which club(s) sponsor them. In the Southeast the choices are simple since most events are sponsored by TMC. I have not seen a MCI sponsored event in my area in years. I am a paying MCI member but, other than perhaps a yearly magazine, I get nothing as far as local events. I am not throwing stones, just stating the facts. I can see why someone living in the Northeast would view things very differently since that MCI region is much more active. Personally I do not care if its TMC, MCI or whatever .... and yes one club is better than two. This community is too small to be splitting it. Mike D offers great activities through the TMC Southeastern chapter, and for that I am very grateful. Ivan
Hello all: I am glad that things seem to be moving in the right direction: apart of spending part of the last two winters in Florida I moved out of the US in June 2005 so can't have my finger on the pulse of how things have evolved, obviously more than I knew: great! As many of you say including Ivan in this last post, I don't care who puts on an event if there are classic Maserati I will aim to go. I am totally uninterested in politics: I am an enthusiast period, happiest driving. The Maser Miglias I attended in 1997 and 2000 were some of the best and most fun events with wonderful people that I ever attended but I don't care which of the clubs organized those. On the matter of showing classic Maseratis in and around Maserati dealerships well done to those of you who do it and I will restate that discussing such a programme with MNA will help get some of the new Maserati buyers interested in classics and thus help preserve them. Likewise speaking with MNA should without too much difficulty gnerate a calendar of ALL classic Maserati events. Regarding a database as I mentioned early on there should be a locked thread in which bona fide pure technical content can be uploaded, when one of us comes upon something that might be useful then we can pm it to each other, if we all agree that it is useful it can be placed in the locked thread with moderator help. Keeping this thread locked to comments and so forth keeps it undiluted and easy to use. best regards, Marc
Then we need a section about DRIVING!!!!!! This is what these cars are about, not speculation, how to fit the widget into the sprocket (I have no idea what a widget or a sprocket are but I am sure that if the car got driven they would be happier: any car needs to be drivine or it deteriorates. I cannot beleive the number of people who don't drive their cars: driving them is good for them. I realize some of the people who focus on concours do so because they unfortunately have poor eye sight and or are not very good drivers and cannot feel confortable doing track days but they can do road rallies: at least they get to experience the cars alive: to me concours are museum annexes: the car is no longer a living entity people speak of driving them as something that took place in the past and overspend so much on the restoration that they are then terrified of driving so the car instead of having been saved by the restoration process is effectively removed from the road by that restoration. In the three years I spent at Motorcar Gallery (a job I took strictly to get my own Khamsin) I saw many concours trailer queens arrive that were partly fossilzed whereas those cars that might not be perfect cosmetically but were used regulalry were much happier as was the case with my Khamsin. Even though I rebuilt engines during my year in the French army 25 years ago and was my owne mechanic in the French kartiong championship and in my first racing year in Formula Ford in 1987 in England I have very little interest in the mechanical side of things: I like to DRIVE on beautiful challenging twisty deserted roads for which these cars are made and while I respect those who are enthusiastic about the technical side of things I would encourage them not to forget to drive the cars: plan a trip with a good itinerary and enjoy the experience...you will be glad you did. just my 2 cents, best regards, marc
Oh no, please no club politics section. This topic only erupts once in a blue moon, I think Marc inadvertanly go it going this time. Actually it would be really nice if those sort of discussions just self erased after a while. Better yet the reason for them. ;>)) Bob S.
