Bonhams Gstaad auction & results

Jim,
This part 275 GTB #06653 = Swiss Francs 900'000 all up, and seems to be 1mil later,
So that is for a 275 gtb SHORT nose steel car, and not a gtb4 and not 800 k usd. I enjoy discussions about markets (well actually not) but we must keep the figures as they are. Do you have a bet or so to talk the market down? Dont misunderstand me, I am currently in for a nice 50-60's car, so going down is not a bad thing.....
ciao
Oscar

 

Since when is this the normal or traditional method for determining the sales value of a car? Whilst you're deducting VAT, and fees, why not deduct shipping costs, recent maintenance, and the money the seller owes to uncle Bob.

I say this is the method for determining the sales value of a car by someone who is deliberately, actively, and desperately trying to talk the market down for their own purposes.

Thats my opinion.

Cheers...

 

Erik:

You're on the right track. Logically, and with all fairness, its in the middle. Unless of course you are trying to talk the market down, then you take the number that the seller nets after he has paid his Road & Track magazine subscription.

You can be dispassionate about these things, and observe and report, or you can be biased.

 

Dont encourage him, I have money on this...

 

Exactly Mike.

Sellers net less, buyers pay more, but since when is the value of a car determined ONLY by the NET amount the seller gets as Jim is trying to convince us it is?

I aint buyin' it...

Talk about biased.

.

 

Whoa there Jimbo, take it easy. Likewise right back at you. Speak for yourself please and leave being personal out of this! People can read YOUR biased posts and see if they want to do business with YOU. Lets stick to discussing the market and how bad the world is and when people are going to be eating each other (your prediction).

Lets cut to the chase. This thread opens and you make 4 posts on the FIRST page alone. As you've suggested, people can read your posts too and see that they are extremely biased and negative in favor of a bad market. Thats the bottom line. 20 posts in this thread and you're still at it. How about a glimmer of hope for the future? How about encouragement for the human spirit?

Lets not forget your record-breaking 100-plus posts talking the market down in the "Sheehan's lowered his prices" (or something similar) thread talking doom & gloom and the end of the world.

As for the "F40 prices coming down" (or something similar) thread, your total percentage of all posts there are in a league of their own. Over 80 posts talking the market down, comprising almost a QUARTER of ALL the posts in that thread!

Im just observing. Anyone else can do their own tally and Im sure it will be more accurate than mine, but the posts are an astonishing effort to cast a negative pall over the car market, in my opinion. The jig is up. I wonder how it would be perceived if someone did that in the investment world??

It all speaks for itself if you ask me, and your agenda is clear. I have never seen anyone lobby so hard in favor of anything. Well, except Obama Accordingly, I shall disregard all your future posts on market-related matters as I have satisfied myself following my perusal that they are biased. Thats my opinion, and Im sticking to it.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

 

+1

Fortunately, many are aware of this...in my very humble opinion, the best cars change hands this way.

 

A good broker in the U.S. would offer a VAT-dodging service for the auction houses and private Euro buyers. For 5% you obtain the vehicle in Europe, ship it to the U.S., hold it for a month, then sell it to the real Buyer and ship it to her back in Europe.

So instead of paying 15% in transaction taxes to Europe, they'd pay you 5%...easily making it worth your while on $1 Million cars.

Buyers would pay less, Sellers would keep more, and more cars would sell, and quicker, too.

 

Enzo may very well have been in Brecia and had his picture taken, just not is this location. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Mike

No matter how many times you say it your statement that VAT has "always been a part of the process" is silly. VAT is a European tax. It has never been charged at US auctions. Marcel stated that it is included in these figures and the idea that it shouldn't be deducted from the 934K to reach a price that can be compared with other auctions results that don't include it is absurd.

No matter how many times Oscar, Joe, and you say the number is 934K it remains 794K and should one wish to compare that to the price someone payed at the RM auction four months ago for a 4 Cam which of course doesn't doesn't include European VAT of 15% it's 794K vs 2MM+ that one has to compare. For those of you who think the RM 4 Cam was uniquely valuable
use the 1.5MM that others sold for at auction at that time. I'm glad you agree that the trend is clear.


Joe

Lets take the F 40 thread which resulted in you being banned for 7 days for spamming. IMO thats all one needs to look at to see if they should do business with you. Ross found several F 40's for over 150K less than the one you wanted to sell him including one that has Classiche Certification. If they still want additional information before deciding they can check out your interaction with Alex and Jas.

Your statement that I am some how doing business by stating what I believe the market to be and pointing out that the number you "also" got 935K contains 15% of European VAT tax unlike the numbers previously discussed from US auctions is simply not true. I have absolutely no economic interest in selling cars what so ever. I realize that that as a broker you have an economic interest in having the prices of cars higher as you work on a percentage basis of the gross sale but "also" getting 935K when the real number less VAT which a US buyer would not have to pay is 794K speaks for it's self.

 

As someone with no experience of buying or selling classic cars, or any cars at auction; surely the buyer pays the VAT, not the seller, hence the amount the seller receives is the hammer price less any fees due to the auction house?

Also, isn't the standard Swiss VAT rate 7.6%, rather than 15% (an amount that will vary between the different EU countries)?

 

F-40 will become a 300K car. You may not like it, but you will get used to it.

Only jig that is up is of middlemen who over the years have helped inflate prices. Can't you see what you post is in direct contradiction with the market, but Jim is on the mark? You are barely back from the ban and are already hyping the "holy grail" lambo.

 

Jim, Your'e the one splitting hairs now. You have been going on and on about the market, quoting the highs and predicting the lows, never using Net numbers or qualifying your predictions by saying "keep in mind there are commissions and fees, so the seller get's less" . That's just a given, whether it's a European sale and a Vat tax, a US sale and a higher sellers premium, the monetary exchange rate(and who has more buying power). The fact is, valuations are the hammer price+ buyers premium. All I'm pointing out is you've been using gross numbers when talking highs and now using net numbers in talking lows. It would be fair to use the same equation when coming to your conclusions, that's all. Mike

 

Hi

The seller receives hammer less seller fees.

The buyer pays hammer plus buyer fees.

The tax is entirely separate. I believe a UK resident pays 15% VAT.

The price quoted, as per Marcel, included UK VAT, fees and hammer. (600K GPB)

The salient point is that Tax is not part of the value of the car. If this car sold at auction in the US and was registered in Oregon there would be no Tax. Since it sold in Europe and will be brought into the UK there is a 15% tax included in the 600K GBP, therefore comparing numbers that include tax at 15%, this gross number and numbers than don't include any Tax, RM US summer sales, is not apples to apples.

Cheers

 

Mike

See my previous post to Adam. We've plowed this ground. The seller received 600K. The buyer paid 794K. The Tax Man got 140K.

Next stop US January auctions where VAT will not be part of the total vs hammer price.

Best

 

While tax is not part of the value it is part of the cost.
In uncertain markets such as today's people tend to take comments more personally. All of the regular posters here have made valid points but things seem to be devolving. Not to sound like Rodney King but maybe its time for us all to take a breath.
In any case happy new year.

 

I can confirm that for SWISS people in SWITZERLAND at a SWISS auction (such as Gstaad) the VAT is 7.6 percent and not 15 percent.
Different for England. The seller and the buyer of the 275 GTB/4 #09617 at Gstaad are both English, NOT Swiss. The buyer has a house here in Switzerland, however, and will bring the car (via England) to Switzerland.
Marcel Massini

 

Got it, thanks.

 

Not trying to repeat myself. but it was a 275 gtb SHORT NOSE sold for 1 mil CHF and I assume WITHOUT tax! That is 935k usd and that is a lot of money.
As far as I know the gtb 4 Cam did not sell.
I know a few trades last month of important cars for a lot of money. I am not saying makret is going up or down (in fact I dont give a ***, but I want to keep to the facts.

PS I am in to a Maserati Gran Turismo, but these cars stay rather expensive (compared to the 599/612's and QP's) so hard to say where we are going to with money/cars/future.....

ciao
Oscar

 

Doesn't surprise about the Maser. Very pretty/good car.

Best

 

All I see is that the Dino market is still ok. Both sold cars reached reasonable prices, the one unsold (#1860) seems to have complete wrong numbers. Hey, some people paid up to 170 USD for an extremely original, nearly one hand GTS (I never saw a better one) which needs all and a GT which needs very much. Not a bad sign for this special micro market and the markets at all.

 

TcpSec:

I could care less if the F40 becomes a $25k car, or a $2.5 mil car. My job is to know the individual cars, their provenance & histories, to the benefit of someone interested in a particular car. Thats what I focus on. Deals are done at the top of the market, on the way down, at the bottom, and on the way back up again, and there is no way for you or Jim or any other 'doom & gloomer' to ever stop that. There is always a reason why a particular person with their unique set of circumstances wants or needs to do a deal. Its a free market, don't forget.

Rest assured, I am not complaining about 2008, thank you very much. In fact, the last 2 months have been particularly productive, strangely enough, the best Ive ever seen.

When the market was going up, I suggested caution with the way numbers were being reported (you can check my posts). One the way down, Im doing the same thing. I just want to try and be accurate & fair.

As to the "Holy Grail Lambo" (I suppose you are talking about the 1965 Turin Salon Miura?), you have no idea what you're speaking about. I was retained to make it happen, and I did, under difficult circumstances. It belongs to a long-term collector who hasn't even begun the long process of restoration. Why do I need to "hype" it up when the sale has already been completed in total secrecy?? If my reference to the fact that it is the "Holy Grail" is hype to you, so what? To me its the Holy Grail, and thats my opinion.

 

Mike:

As we spoke privately the other day, you cant stop some people putting any spin they want on a difficult market. Granted its a miserable time for some, and as they say, misery loves company.

Values are way down, 30%, maybe more, but yet still, even if they went down 80%, its not the end of the world and I still believe that the best cars (which are very few as you & I know) will always have good value.

By the way, if the market comes down as low as some have predicted, I will be able to buy you an F40 for $180,000 with the check Ive already written out in preparation. Cant wait.

Best,
Joe



.

 

I forgot to mention that some brokers work for just 5%. Ive even heard a rumor of a broker who split that amount between both buyer & seller (gasp)!

 

'European' VAT has been mentioned here in connection with the Bonhams auction sale. I would merely point out that up to the end of November while Swiss VAT was 7.5%, UK VAT was 17.5%, and at auctions it was ONLY chargeable upon the COMMISSION charged by the auction house - NOT as 17.5% of the overall hammer price for the artefact sold.

From December 1, after our dear Porridge Bandit leader 'The Mouth Breather' issued his unilateral VAT decree for the greater good of his struggling electorate (struggling largely thanks to TMB's past preening incompetence) the rate for this tax has been reduced to 15%. There seems to be some assumption in this Forum that a charge at relevant VAT rate is added to the hammer price of a sold Lot. I believe this is not so...VAT is incurred on the service provided, i.e. on the commission only. You know it makes sense...

DCN