OK I'll start. I've pretty much discussed this to death over on the Yahoo Biturbozentrum site. I did start a single purpose Yahoo groups site for Ghibli Open Cup owners and that was a complete bust. There are too few owners, many are uncomfortable using English and those englishman that own them are all lords or something and not too keen to discuss things. A lot of people are just very private about such things. I'm not making a car equivalence here but you don't seen discussions about Birdcages, 250F or any race cars by their owners. I published one article in the MIE magazine Viale Ciro Menotti about my initial experiences and perhaps later next year I'll do a follow up article. I'm nearing the end on a bunch of repairs/changes and a unfortunate bump of the guard rail at Watkins Glen required a re-fabrication of the entire fiberglass section of the front end plus a fender and hood repair. That, was only a slight bump too! Yes ... I'm having "fun". They REALLY need to do something about those damn guard rails at the Glen. They just jump out and whack you when you're not expecting it! There are a number of people having fun with these unique cars all over the world from Japan, New Zealand, Australia and Europe. I'd really like to see some of them post some stuff here. Not just the typical stuff anyone can find via google either. (pictures later) Bob S.
Bob... Thanks for starting this... I am looking forward to it!!! Perhaps when you get a chance, you can let us know what changes you are making? and perhaps why? Mike D.
I'd really like to see some from other owners past and present. I don't want this to be just a thread about my particular car. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Very very nice Bob. I don't know much about these cars. I thought that these were not imported into the U.S.. Great pictures! It may end up just being your thread, and you know what, that's OK, it's our gain. So, if you are moved to write/post more...do it. You should start your Racing Bora thread as well Bob. Ciao, George
I have a LONG experience with the Ghibli II and its Open Cup version. Let me share some interesting pieces of information that could be nice subjects for further discussion later. 1) The original Ghibli Open Cup for the 1995 season had some serious flaws - for example the brakes, which were too weak and too prone to overheating on the track. The engine at that stage had about 325 HP from the Maserati 2.0 liter V6 with twin turbos and 24 valves. 2) Maserati addressed criticism for the '96 season. Already from '95 the road-going Ghibli GT had adopted the better differential and brakes from the Ferrari F355, which were introduced in the racing version too. The revised and improved '96 Open Cup also spawned Cup cars set up for the Italian and other European GT championships. 3) As the Maserati Open Cup was abruptly cancelled, most "orphans" found a home in various GT championships. The cars were heavily tuned and modified to compete against the likes of the C5 Corvette, Ferrari F355, Porsche 911 RSR, Porsche 911 GT2, Dodge Viper and other fearsome contenders. The Ghibli was certified for the European "GT3" class. It proved to be astonishingly fast. In the right hands it could outperform just about anything in its class apart from the Porsches, and even against these in the '97 season the Ghibli captured some important absolute victories. The Ghibli's GT drivers included F.1 legend Arturo Merzario, young guns like Danny Zardo and seasoned veteran amateurs like Giudici and Pifferi. Most people outside Italy will probably only recognize Merzario. With the Ghibli he conquered 3 absolute victories in the '97 championship. 4) As it was progressively tuned and improved to keep up with the competition, the little V6 got to an astonishing (and reliable) 400 HP, some tuners pushing it as far as 450-500 HP (at which point the modifications were pretty heavy). During its evolution the Ghibli got some very sophisticated hardware such as the sintered-ceramic material turbochargers running on ceramic pin-bearings (!!!) - an astonishingly expensive piece of Japanese technology that was fundamental to push the performance envelope to its limit. The road-going version of the Ghibli Cup (100 made, 330 HP) uses these turbochargers. 5) I seem to remember (but don't quote me on this) that the fastest lap set by a Ghibli Cup at Monza is still faster today than what the F360 Challenge ever achieved, and only the F430 Challenge (almost 10 years later) is today faster than the little Maser at Monza! 6) Many heavily tuned Ghibli Cups and GT3s were later forgotten by their owners and ended up gathering dust in the back of suburban workshops all over Italy. A few made it to the USA (Staatsof has one, and another one I contributed to finding and negotiating for another customer). Others ended up at "bulk auctions" of warehouse clearances or bankruptcy sales. Others were reconverted to road spec (you can find most in Germany and Japan), but retaining the aggressive GT3 aero kit, 19" wheels, racing brakes and suspension, and of course those tuned engines... 7) A 450 HP GT3-spec-engine Ghibli is for sale now in Italy, it looks absolutely stock down to the leather interior and silver bodywork. Must be the ultimate "sleeper" but even the seller warns that "its huge performance cannot be harnessed by everyone"!!! We're talking about a mid-range kick that would put a modern Lamborghini to shame... and without traction control!
#4 I've never heard of that. I had to replace the turbos on mine and I was under the impression that yes these were experimental and they were simply the first example of IHI ball bearing turbos. Your statement is very different. Are you saying these were on the post series race cars or all of them from the beginning? Very interesting. #5 From my experience there's no way a stock Open Cup can hang with a 360 challenge car unless it's a course that's unbelievably favourable to the GOC and I don't know which one that would be. I think that actually the reference is to a 348 Challenge and the 1995 non EVO version. Even with a big HP bump it still doesn't handle like the 360. I will say that even though a 360 challenge pulls away on the longer straights it's not by much and a 355 challenge is about evenly matched though my impression is that it also handles better. I've been on the track with a lot of 360 and 355 challenge cars and not all of them are better drivers than I though many certainly are. You get an idea eventually if it's the car, the driver or both. As far as being flawed as a race car, yes there are many issues. The Evoluzione kit was unfortunately not installed as a retrofit by a single qualified shop. At least mine was not. It was installed by a variety of god knows who places. Mine was not well done. That has caused me to have to deal with several key failures. One being the front end coming apart at speed at Watkins Glen while going through the esses. It's amazing that the I did not lose control of the car. That was due to a missed inspection point (twice) by the shop I used and either an assembly error or design error in the EVO kit. It was a very hard spot to find/see properly in an inspection and ultimately either the installer used the wrong part or the wrong part was supplied. Additionally the original installer certainly should have caught this error. The nylock nut was too tall on one piece and thus was never locked. The other major flaw was the rear suspension change for toe adjustment. The design was a total failure that wore quite quickly thus failing to keep the toe adjustment locked and the rear wheels flopped in camber adjustment as well as toe. Makes for challenging driving. A return to the original suspension design eliminated that problem. There were some very unqualified engineers on this project. I remember talking with Panini shortly after getting my car and him saying well the original car is very poorly engineered. He wasn't just speaking of the 95 either. The 96 season wasn't long enough for Maserati to straighten this out. So some cars had this done later on. There are plenty of other issues as well. The rear has a dual spring setup on the coil-overs with spring coupling collars. Mine had the spring installed upside down. In this configuration at rest they were not over the shock body but above it. They were also a bit too small in ID. The result was that the collar would hang-up trying to go over the top of the shock body and the rear end would hop around horribly on bumpy tracks like Limerock. Again, challenging to drive. These things are typical of a very under developed car and most certainly were addressed on those cars that raced after the series or they never would have finished let along won any of them. As I said there are plenty of other issues and really too numerous to go into. All cars like these have issues like these but maybe this one had a few more glaring ones at the beginning. Precious little of these issues and their remedies has anything to do with the street cars though. The wheels, suspension and brakes on these cars are totally unsuitable for the street. There are some issues that do have some relevance for the street cars: a) All Ghibli II street or Open Cup cars can develop a frame crack directly opposite the turbocharger exit where the exhaust connects. I suspect this is due to the heat exposure. It's less than .25" away from the frame. b) The Getrag gearbox (very similar to the one used in the M3 of the same vintage) could use a pair of upgraded rear mount bushings as the box tends to move around too much. They are available from UCC. On the track this can cause you to miss a gear and I have. c) The power steering fluid overheats very easily. Even with a catch tank and vent which was a disastrous attempt for my car it still didn't work. I've also tried a much bigger PS cooler and that had no effect. I believe that not enough fluid flows through it to cool things down quickly enough. I think that this is also related to the turbo exhaust exit area. They sit directly over the steering rack on each side and so I believe a heat shield is the only cure. Bob S.
Regarding #4: indeed, the turbos are not experimental at all. They were used on the road-going Ghibli Cup. They run on ceramic needle bearings, and this combined to the very light syntered ceramic rotor allows much greater rotating speeds (and also I suspect much better resistance to heat). #5: I have to make a few corrections to my statements here. I meant Ghibli "GT3" not "Cup". The cars modified to GT3 spec were much faster around any circuit than the Open Cup cars they originated from. The modifications went very deep. I wrote an article about the Ghibli GT3's exploits in the Tridente magazine, back in 1997. I will scan the article when I return home and send it to you. You will indeed find that the Ghibli regularly beat the F355 on the track, and a few times (usually in the hands of Merzario or Pifferi) it managed to win outright against the Porsche RSR (which was a factory-developed GT3 car while the Ghiblis were all developed by independent garages without factory support). Overall the Porsche 911 RSR took the GT championship but the Ghibli was a surprising runner-up. Also, regarding the Monza lap times: I have found that the Monza circuit was slightly altered between 1997 and 2000-2003, when the 360 Challenge cars were running. That probably accounts for the discrepancy. In any case, you must consider not only that the Ghibli GT3 was a significant improvement on the Open Cup, but that the driver that got the best lap at Monza was a certain Merzario, while the 360 Challenge is driven by amateurs... I guess the driver alone would be good for 2-3 seconds a lap!! A friend of mine in Italy owns one of the last Ghiblis specced to GT3 configuration. It is an extreme development, almost unrecognizable from the original car. His engine is tuned to 435 HP.
A. Which portion of the turbo rotor do you believe was ceramic? I'm very curious about this as I've had one destroyed by track debris and the other spun itself to death shortly therafter. I would agree that they spin up a lot faster than the 3200GT based replacements I had to substitute. You do notice it. In terms of being experimental, when I contacted IHI about them they informed me that there were no parts available and that these had not been utilized on any other car. B. Re lap times, yes apples to apples. I'm certain Merzario would have done much better in the 360 challenge than a stock GOC EVO. The gearbox, lower center of gravity and mid-engined layout are improvements hard to beat with such an old design, no matter how much it's tweaked. So, perhaps you can get your friend and others to join us here? Of course I would be interested in what they did to address some of the issues I raised as well as those that were identified in actual race conditions. I only go out 1/2 hour at a time and I do not race but I do push the car reasonably hard. Waht's the point to do otherwise? I've not focused at all on increased engine performance because 1. I want as much longevity as possible and 2. I have as yet not been able to push the car flat out handling wise because of all the issues previously mentioned. I believe #2 has been solved now. Bob S.
Hi Bob regarding the engine, there are many road-going Ghiblis in Italy and Germany with professional engine upgrades, running between 400 and 450 HP, with monster torque in the mid-range. A famous German tuner developed several tuning packages for the Maserati turbocharged engines. From the V8 3.2 he extracted 650 HP, while the 2.0 litre V6 got to 450 HP. The 2.0 liter was the most race-oriented of all Maserati engines, capable of revving to 7500 rpm in its most tuned form. Many German owners opted for tuning up the 2.8 liter engine, which can reach over 500 HP. However, it is generally known that the 2.0 liter is much more robust than the 2.8, which is prone to cylinder heads cracking and other horrible problems (it has something to do with insufficient cooling of the top end). The general consensus is that up to 400 HP the 2.0 liter should hold up well - provided it is maintained with care (oil replacements every 1000 miles or so, as the oil "cokes" up due to the high temperatures) and provided it is warmed up very gently and cooled down equally slowly. I have seen many 2.0 liter "stock" Ghiblis (306 HP) reaching as much as 200,000 Kms (125,000 miles) before needing a rebuild. A dealer even showed me a car that had done 300,000 Km (186,000 miles) and was in the workshop for a total rebuild (engine, diff, gearbox, steering, suspension) before going back to its original owner. Of course, we're talking about road cars where you don't really exploit the 200 hp/liter all the time. For a track car, the reliability decreases exponentially with power! However, looking back at the '97 GT season, I couldn't find any instances of catastrophic engine failures. It seems that up to 400 HP the engines were holding up very well, even on the track. I will try to contact my friend in Italy and see if he's interested in joining the discussion (he runs a very large business so he's rarely available). For tuning the engine (and ensuring you can find the spare parts) try http://www.modena-tec.com/ these are the guys I mentioned earlier. They tune Maseratis for the road, but I'm sure they'd be happy to consider tuning a Cup car too. The owner speaks English well.
Andre, I am familiar with Modena-Tec. I did get a couple of chips from them a few years ago for the 3200 turbos I installed. The trouble is that they're in Germany and even if I wanted to utilize them it's not very practical. I don't think I've ever heard that the 2.8L motor has an issue with cracking cylinder heads. The Cup motors all have the 2.8L heads. I believe the only difference between the 2.8L and 2.0L heads may be the compression ratio so if this is an issue with 2.8L motors it's rather curious since that motor has less HP but more torque. My engine tested before the recent rebuild at 380HP asumming a 20% loss at the drive train which maybe high. Perhaps 15% is more accurate, I don't know. In any event engine power has not been the issue with this car. And, yes it's a mid range punch engine something like a catapult. You definitely KNOW it's a turbocharged car. Did you see my question about the the original turbos? "Which portion of the turbo rotor do you believe was ceramic?" I'm very curious about this. Bob S.
Bob, from your dyno quote it seems your engine is already close to its maximum potential! The rumors about the 2.8L come from UK and Italian specialists who claimed this alleged weakness. Torque could have something to do with it: when you run a full load curve very often the most highly stressed points in terms of temperatures and PME are the mid-range full-torque points. I agree however that it is strange. I'll talk to these Italian specialists and get a more detailed explanation. Regarding the turbocharger, for sure the ceramic needle bearings were a feature on the Ghibli Cup, but the original idea was that the turbine rotor would also be made from from a composite ceramic "powder" with a process of high pressure synterization (??). If this does not make any sense please forgive my ignorance. I once had a meeting with a turbocharger supplier (Mitsubishi) who were presenting this syntered ceramic composite turbine technology to us. It looked pretty astonishing but I am not an expert in the field of automotive ceramics or synterization. I will try to find out more info. Have a good day
Bob / Andre... I must say, I'm quite impressed with what I have been reading here! This is interesting and loved the pictures... Keep up the good work because we all may learn something, especially about the 2.8 heads and the ceramic Turbo technology!!!! Mike D.
Dear Maserati Friends, Only today did I spot this thread. Thank you for starting it, an excellent idea! I have bought my Ghibli Open Cup at the Bonhams Gstaad auction in 2006. In the past 2 years I have used her around some of the race tracks and venues in Holland and I plan to do more with her in 2009. Very controllable car and really nice to slide and drift. I will post some photos later so you can see the current condition. Well with 1850 kms from new and a restoration by Candini in Modena she is pretty much.....ehhhmm...new. I could do with some chassis geometry set-up details because my car is not set up correctly, I plan to improve that in the near future before the next outing. Best regards from Amsterdam, Michaël Boertien
So Michael, do you have the first year series car that was discovered in a wharehouse or something and then was restored at Candini's? Bob S.
Hello Bob, Indeed that is the car I have, there is a nice description of it on Enrico's Maserati pages (www.maserati-alfieri.co.uk/alfieri00a.htm) on page 67 with many photographs before and after restoration. I will post photos later, have to delve into my hard disk for that. Best regards, Michaël
Fantastic, I had been wondering where that particular car had ended up!! Please post pictures... and technical specs! Did you have it upgraded to "EVO" (GT3) spec?
Hello everybody here, I have a 95 spec GOC that now I use as a road car. In a talk with William di Sala (he passed away last year) about having some upgrades for my car, he told me that most cars he prepared were around 400hp because it was a good reliability engine limit, and once at this level one of the most important things to do was to improve general cooling of the engine bay to avoid too much heat. He prepared a number of GOC including the green one of Panini. All works in my car are usually carried out by Candini at modena and I have heard too about the 2.8 litre engine been less reliable because of the overheating due at the bigger diameter bore using same block. I have never driven a 96 spec but I can tell about the differences between my car and the stradale Ghibli cup. Handling wise, my car suffers less the understeer than the stradale cup and there is a big difference in the way the engine delivers the power. Mine has a little bit more torque under 3500rpm and goes much better over 6500rpm till little more 7000rpm. I probably prefer much more a mid engine configuration for track use but on the road I find this car great entertaiment. Cheers Some pictures of a 96 spec GOC at Bonfanti last year. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thanks for the post! Unfortunately I never was able to get Mr. Sala to answer emails but in my discussions with Mateo Panini he said that thetre were several other shops in the are that prepared these cars for racing. Do you know anything about that? BTW, the car pictured is a bit more than a 96 EVO spec. That one looks like it's had the "Sala Treatment". I think your car having the 95 suspenson is probably a much better road going car than a 96 EVO version would be. I agree with you about the mid engined for the track. Bob S.
That would be great. Looking at that latest picture I see that the front air dam/bumper has a dark looking area on the side where there appears to be a potential cut-out for a side vent. I've not seen a car with that cut out as an opening and I have always wondered what is the intention with that design? It's well ahead of the intercooler so I'm wondering if they cut it open does it serve to create an extraction flow of air around the outside of the front wheel for hot air coming out of the wheel well??? Do you have any close-up pictures of that area? Bob S.
Actually, as far as I know, this help to avoid turbulence in the arch wheel area. I think it helps to create a flux area in-out to extract hot air from the brakes , in fact as you say, is placed before the intercooler. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Well that is different. Thanks for posting them. Mine has purpose built carbon fiber duct work that attaches directly to the face of the intercooler and then the other end of that duct work interfaces with the front fiber glass pieces both the upper and lower. It's a difficult thing to fit so I had it modified recently. I've attached a picture of mine which has changed since then but the inter cooler on the left has no duct work mounted and the one on the right has it mounted. It projects into two openings to fit the rear of the bumper/dam/spoiler. So ... there's not much air that would get out of that side opening on my car though undoubtedly some would anyway. As one can see from your picture the backside of the intercooler in directly exposed to the tire about 1 inch away. I had to mount woven stainless steel screen on that side of the intercoolers because the tires would throw stones against it and totally flatten the fins. The car in your picture clearly has zero duct work behind the bumper to the intercoolers. I wonder if Sala and others found that this actually worked better this way? I have not seen Panini's car in close up to know how his was done. Now as to the brake ducting ... what a job the did on that one for 96! The front bumper has two 4" round holes in it with extensions which presumably were for duct hose for the brakes. One small problem ... they are placed 50% in front of the radiator so you'd need to make some very special adapters and even then I haven't tried to see how to route any duct hose. It's already a pretty busy in that area with intercooler pipes/hoses and oil cooler stuff. I'd be very interested in speaking with anyone you could find that has direct experience with what they did to these cars for the Italian GT races. Also, that car has a different trunk lid, probably the stock steel one with an added spoiler lip. Thanks again. Bob S. Image Unavailable, Please Login
See: www.cars-at-speed.com/maserati-ghibli-open-cup/index.html for pictures of the first outing since 1995 of "3500Touring" his car... I had the honour to take the first pictures of this car in action since it went into 'wintersleep'. In 1995 I photographed the Maserati Ghibli Open Cup during the 'Italia a Zandvoort' race event, but unfortunately car number 14 does not show up in my archives. I did not know then that I would see it again some 12 years later... Some analogue pictures of 1995: Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'm not certain my car #18 even ran there but I might as well ask. Do you have any shots of a yellow #18? Bob S.
