I have to ventilate here because my wife will not listen to the latest Boxer problem. The car starts cold. The car starts hot. But the starter sticks when warm. Basically, if I drive the car for more than 5 minutes, then she has to stay running for about 30. Or remain off for about 30. The ^@#&^%!$ starter just sticks when warm. This has been with me since I bought her 2 years ago. But now it's getting worse. Oh, and now that I have a working clock, I have to be vigilant about turning off the battery disconnect or else the battery will drop below crank current after 3 weeks. She is good looking. Even with all the @&^*@^@$ fingerprints all over the body from 3 people pushing her back to the garage when she wouldn't start.
Sounds like you need to change the solonoid. It's cheap and its the fix (hopefully). Keep us posted. Robbie
One thing you might try the next time the solenoid won't engage when warm is (make sure the gearbox is in Neutral): Key "on" and touch a jumper from the big +12V battery cable at the back of the solenoid to the terminal holding the B (white) start command wire. If that starts it, then you need to determine what the voltage is on the B (white) wire when you put the key in the start position -- If less than 7~8V, you might need a new ignition switch (but most likely you'd have this trouble at other times too so probably not this). If ~8V or more, get a new solenoid (you can try cross referencing the Bosch 10-digit PN here -- www.wai-wetherill.com).
Steve, I've had for a long, long time a slow crank when the engine is hot. She always starts though...and spins over quickly when then engine is cold. At least on my BB, the starter and solenoid are made by Magnetti Marelli. I've never tried to source the solenoid. Regards, David
Don't know if this is related but she has had the famous starter relay bypass installed so there's current a' plenty going to the starter. The solenoid engages fine; the starter just can't turn the motor when warm.
OK -- misunderstood your description, but do you mean it does try to spin, but is weak/stopped, or it doesn't try to rotate at all? You might try measuring the voltages on the two large switched connections on the Solemoid relative to ground during a warm cranking no-spin event: Battery side = 10~12V and Starter Motor side = 10~12V -- must be in the Starter Motor itself as John indicated, or yours is even a little wimpier than David's example. Battery side = 10~12V and Starter Motor side = Lower -- bad internal Solenoid switch/contacts Battery side = Low and Starter Motor side = Low -- bad upstream primary connection in either + or - Good hunting!
Good day Buzz, Indeed, I second what John said... If you are electrically inclined, remove the starter and clean the commutator and check the brushes. It is possible that the commutator is heavily oxidized and/or brushes are almost worn... If the commutator is oxidized, some high grit emery cloth will do the trick. If the brushes are worn, then replacement is cheap and pretty easy. If anything checking the commutator and/or brushes can be done pretty quick and then you can rule out if either is an issue. Cheers, Sam
just get rid of the factory starter, put it on the shelf. Replace with a high torque starter. We just did this on a 512bb and it transformed the car. No more start problems, turns over twice as fast, uses less electricity, and 1/2 the price of a factory starter. I replaced mine on my Dino and finally cured years of starter problems.
After getting your list of no-no's from the concours you want to add another incorrect part? Buying a new starter from ferrari is something a fool would do. My 308 starter listed at $3K from the dealer LMAO so I rebuilt it for $150. The boxer starter is no different in that its a mercedes motor with a snout that makes it ferrari specific, easy to rebuild and even upgrade.
I have resigned myself to having a great driver that won't make platino at a National Concours. There are simply too many minor wear & tear 1/2 pt issues to deal with. But rebuilding the starter is definitely an option.
My car had an MSD, always started immediately, even when not started for a few weeks or in 98 degree Florida summers.
Starter fatigue must be contagious. Mine began the intermittent "strong/weak/nothing," cycle couple weeks back. Took it out yesterday, having it rebuilt. Told them it was for a Fiat; it says FIAT on the nose (you can't see it when installed). The solenoid was, to them, "overpriced" at $68 and the full starter rebuild will be $140. Will have it back today. The high torque starters are nice (have one in my other car) but just didn't feel like I needed it here.
Replaced the old Interstate battery which would not hold a full charge. Now she starts quickly and reliably. I now also religiously use the cut-off switch.
....or you can use a battery tender. I use the Deltran tender + (One for each car ) Shamile Freeze...Miami Vice !
I'm also having issues this last two or three weeks. It's pretty hot here at the moment, 41 degrees on Tuesday and I've been able to get the old girl out a bit since Christmas too enjoy the nice weather. Occasionally you will pull up to a shop or mates place, and come out 3 - 8 minutes later, hit the key, nada. Not even a click. So you turn off the radio, take your foot off the brake, all the silly things that shouldn't make a difference with (recently) new battery, and it still wont start. Then after trying a bunch of times, for no reason at all it just starts normally. I must say that it makes ou look like a real dick, sitting in your flashy red Ferrari which won't bloody start! It did it once too often on Tuesday so I came home and when it had cooled down a bit I ripped off the starter, thinking that's where the problem lay. I had a fully reco starter on the shelf from my restoration project so I slammed that in, and naturally it started straight away. Today was a mild 30 degrees, and I'm out swanning around, and the daamn thing did it again....twice! Now interestingly enough, I pulled down the original starter for an inspection, and I swear, it looks like brand new except for a bit of black clutch dust in the nose. I reckon it's been rebuilt in UK just before my ownership began two years ago, as it looks perfect in every way. Now given the fully reconditioned one plays up, and the original plays up, I'm tipping that my problem is not in the starter but in the feed wires to the starter. Questions: Does power go from fuse board via ignition switch to the starter, or does the ignition switch supply power to the starter relay which then sends full voltage to the solenoid? Any ideas on this little issue?
Especially if you hang all of your other keys on the ring and it's heavy, that will kill most any ignition switch out there...
No other keys at all. Just the folding original key and the very small plastic alarm fob. Is this a repairable problem?
You've got questions; we've got answers... Starter primary cable: Directly from battery to starter Solenoid wire: Battery to ignition switch -> Key to "Start" position -> directly applies power to starter solenoid post Starter relay? Not on any carbed Boxer (from the Factory) that I've seen. (Possibly on injected cars?) So, if you've got a situation where the solenoid won't engage at all -> Key on, car in neutral -> Jump starter solenoid terminal to primary (always hot) starter terminal. If the starter now engages, the problem is with the feed from the ignition switch. If not, with a helper, verify that when the key is "held in the Start" position, you've got power back at the starter on the solenoid feed wire. If you do; the solenoid is bad. If you don't, likely the electrical section of the ignition switch is bad. If that's the case...How many do you need, as I've stock them (common part) and they fail frequently enough. (And it never hurts to verify the chassis to ground connection on the LHS of the block...or under the car at the battery, where the chassis ground is initiated.) David
Thanks David. I'm looking for a part diagram on Eurospares but I can't find a part number for the ignition switch? Can you help with a part number so I can have a look at the exploded parts diagram please. All I seem to get is this: Ferrari Testarossa (1990) Anti-thelf device Item 038 - Part No 129116 But I expect this is part of the steering lock device that the ignition key fits into. If I can see the drawing, then I can figure out how to pull it apart and test it's operation (or non operational) status.
Robert, Ferrari does not supply the electrical portion of the ignition switch as a separate replacement part. If you go the "Ferrari route", you must purchase the complete anti-theft device, which comes with both the mechanical column lock and the electrical section...which is very costly and unnecessary. However, the ignition switch is readily available from most BMW dealers: PN 61-31-2-682-120 or Eurospares which lists it as 70000707. The switch, from BMW is identical, but of higher quality. (Cost: Less than $100 USD) Although a bit tight, space-wise, there are just two small screws which secure the switch the the column lock. Regards, David
Thanks David, I see it now. It's a contact block that must sit behind the ignition switch and route the electrical curcuit as the key is turned. Wonder why it's only playing up when the car is warm? Anyhow, that BMW part number, PN 61-31-2-682-120, is that a worldwide Beemer Part number. I may be able to get that locally down here in Melbourne. Otherwise with the crash of the Ozzie dollar, it's liable to run into hundreds by the time one of them arrives here. I take it the actual key part comes out and you just fit this new contactor into the barrel?
The food chain to send the +12V to the Solenoid to tell it to fire (when the key is in Pos III) is: battery +12V post -to- e connector (big red wire at RH side of fuse-relay PCB, 2nd from top) -to- PCB trace -to- w connector (the two red wires at the top, the w connector is the single vertical connector on the LH side) -to- ignition switch 30 -to- ignition switch 50 -to- w connector (white B wire, 7th from top) -to- trace on PCB -to- y connector (white B wire) -to- C11 connector under expansion tank -to- solenoid terminal 50. There is no "starter relay" involved in the stock set-up Because the characteristics of the Solenoid can change with temperature -- since the plastic insulation/potting expands more than the metal wire, if you have any micro-cracks in the winding wire, they can be larger at higher temperature -- so the 8~10V that is actually reaching the solenoid can jump the smaller gap when cold, but not a larger gap when warm. Probably anything you do to improve the voltage reaching the Solenoid on the white (B) wire will improve the situation (clean primary battery connections/terminals, new ignition switch, adding a starter relay locally at the solenoid, better connections), but I would do the simple things first (check/clean/reseat/resqueeze the e, w, y, and C11 connectors), and would make some voltage measurements, when it acts up, to see if you can find the break, or weakness, in the food chain -- i.e.: 1. Is there any voltage reaching terminal 50 (the white wire) at the starter solenoid? 2. Is the voltage on the white (B) wire in the w connector is the same as the voltage on the red (R) wires in the w connector? If so, this would indicate the ignition switch is not the problem. 3. Is the voltage on the white (B) wire in the y connector the same as the voltage on the red (R) wires in the w connector? etc.. If a reasonable voltage is reaching the starter solenoid, but it still doesn't work, I'd get a new (non-Bosch) solenoid. Good hunting!
