Cylinder #3 down - Heads coming off!

When you run a remote starter button to the starter, the ignition is never turned on so no, you don't need to pull the harness off anything. Just make sure your ignition key is turned OFF

 

No its not.

 

What do you mean "No its not", no whats not!

 

Whilst I wait for parts to arrive, thought I'd post these pics to show progress:
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I know one thing, there is no way in h*ll I am taking my Ferrari apart.

 

nice pics. I notice you didn't set number 1 at TDC? I take it you have loosened the 36mm bolt, so the pulley can be removed to renew the belt?Do you have dial guages for resetting cams?

 

And the flywheel lock, SD3 for checking exhaust cam, oh, the sonic tension checker helps....

Reminds me of what I don't miss from the old country!

 

#1 doesn't need to be at TDC unless he's setting timing from scratch, but since he's documented the angular position of all the pulleys with the timing belt on, all he has to do is put the new belt back on with the pulleys in the same position.

I don't see the need for these either.

I agree on this. I wouldn't tension the belt any other way on this engine.

Am I missing something here? Educate me.

 

Letting raw gasoline spray into ANYTHING open with spark nearby is one of the #$%#$ (use any adjective) thing you could do.

You could :

1. Burn up the car
2. Burn down your garage
3. Burn down your garage and your house.
4. Get 3rd degree burns over 25% + on your body.

Why not just take them out and get them properly tested?

But Darwin does have a theory.....

Do want you feel is best

 

Well let's see. The crank needs to be moved forward to extract the belt. The marks have been made without it at TDC, they will therefore move and alter position during re-assembly. You do not think that it would be neccesary to reset the cam timing accurately with dial guages?

 

glasser1 I agree on all accounts. - thanks for advice on sonic tension tester - I orderd 1 soon as I read you post - Thanks for advice

I took over 100 photos of timing etc as I stripped it.
My theory is that if the new belt is in exactly the same place as the removed belt then surley as far as the car knows, nothings changed!
I will video 1st startup and post on youtube just for the entertainment factor!

I am 100% confident that the timing belt will be EXACTLY as it was at key-off when I parked it ready to operate.

When I complete the engine assembly I will rotate the engine by hand 10 to 20 times.
If I have any doubt what so ever then I shall have the car lifted to AE Performance to complete any required SD setups!

If the marks I made re timing all alighn there is no reason why she won't fire up OK? (I hope)

Thanks everyone so far for help & advice, please keep it coming and I will continue feedback as it happens.
Russ

 

it's nice seeing your pics, and this is a really interesting thread, please don't think I'm belittling your efforts! However, by re-asembling the engine not at TDC and with the cams dialled in and the variator position checked it won't be right. It will run, but it won't be right.

 

Good advice always accepted - My theory was if the teeth are exactly as they were and the tension is set then it would be as correct!
Hence the white paint marks all over the belt & timing gear! - will tuning engine by hand not prove correct position?

 

Limorus and every one else that does this are studs.

 

The only way I would re=assemble the motor is with new timing belts (and possibly new tentioners) on it. Then use a degree wheel to set cam timing.

 

New belt on order with other parts, already got updated tensioner - Ta
Probably will start engine myself if I can turn it over by hand 10 times! - If I have any doubt at all - I'll take it to AE Performance to check for me tho.
Like I say, I'll video the event post! Even if it self destructs - then I'll start a new post titled "360 engine swap"

 

That's a flawed theory. You'll need to re-time the motor using a dial indicator, degree wheel, etc.

The ECU has provisions for changes that occur in the length of the belt as the motor warms up. The difference in length between a cold belt and a warm belt can be as much as perhaps 10 mm or more in length. This has an impact on timing as you can imagine. The ECU has a "window" which it can use to compensate for this and keep the timing on track. However, that window is based on the initial timing of the motor. If you simply swap belts, you can end up a few degrees off, even though your marks appear to be lined up and/or the belts are on the same teeth, etc. If you do not re-time the motor after installing the new belt, you can inadvertently throw off the ECU's ability to compensate (in other words, its window of adjustment can be thrown off). If this happens, then as the ECU tries to compensate for changes in the belt due to temperature, etc. it will flash up a CEL.

When I was researching doing the belts on my car, I had the same thought as you do: "same belt, same teeth = same original timing". I ran this theory past FNA and they were not amused. The above run down is basically what they told me as far as why you need to re-time the motor.

Re-timing information is in the shop manual. I would strongly suggest you re-time the motor based on the job you are doing. Just slapping a new belt on and hoping "it's the same" most likely ain't gonna get it. You could get lucky and end up close, but it won't be correct in my opinion. In the worst case scenario, the ECU will turn on the check engine light if it sees the timing has shifted outside of the limits which it can correct.

Ray

 

Hill makes a nice tensioner. You might check into them:

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=224307

If I keep my 360 and do the belts myself, I'm going to switch to that tensioner.

Ray

 

Taking it apart isn't what makes you a "stud". It's putting it back together properly that does... Anyone with a set of metric wrenches can take a car apart.

What really matters in the end is how well you put it all back together.

Ray

 

Has anyone took this engine apart before>>?? The Headgasket looks NEW. Usually after 8-10 years they usually dont come off that clean.

Just wondering. Also, did the engine make any noise with the broken spring? Any ticking, valvetrain noise etc>?? Just looking for an indicator incase this happens to one I own.

Good luck getting it back together, I hope it all goes good!!

 

If anyone has taken this engine apart then they did an excellent job, no evidence!
No odd noises came from the engine other than the missfire! No ticking, No knocking.

I admit you guys have half talked me into getting the timing checked, even tho I'm 100% sure it won't need it if nothings changed!

Has anyone else swapped a belt without having it checked?

 

There are two reason to have the crank at TDC when you remove the timing belt. One would be if you are going to reset the cam timing from scratch using dial gauges. The other would be if you want to use TDC as your "mark" to mark its location relative to the camshafts before the belt is removed.

He is doing neither in this case. He is not timing from scratch and he chose to take off the belt in an arbitrary crank position. That is fine as long as he documents that position so he can return it to that position when the belt is re-installed.

First, I have no experience working on 4-cam engines, only 2-cam. So I am NOT an expert.

Second, if the car ran before with the pulleys in the exact same position relative to one another, I can't see how it would run any different at all if they are once again made to run in the exact same position relative to one another, except for the following scenario:

Suppose the belt was initially tensioned properly when it was new and had since stretched so that the tension was less than optimum. Now if he retensions the old belt to the original factory spec (using a tension meter) then it will be stretched longer and the timing will very slightly change. If that is a concern then he should put on a new belt.

Is that really an issue? Does cam timing vary appreciably as the timing belt ages? If belts are replaced at 30,000 miles does performance noticeably degrade during that time?

Please explain. If the marks are lined up after the belt is installed, then you are spot on to the exact same timing as before the belt was removed. If the timing is a few degrees off, then the marks will be a few degrees off.

If it is not correct then it will be immediately obvious because the marks won't be lined up.

Certainly, if "they" are right, the engine will start and run just fine w/o risk of damage. Also, if "they" are right, you might find that the very slight change in timing has improved performance. Assuming it was not perfect when you took it apart, you have a 50/50 chance of it moving in the right direction. I would put it back together and if performance is not what it was before then you can get ready for some real work and dial in the cams.

Again, I am in learning mode here. I have replaced timing belts on my own "non-Italian" automobiles through the years. Certainly not in the same class but the same principles apply. Why wouldn't the same apply here?

Do all Ferrari owners have the cams re-timed when they have the belts replaced? Is that really necessary? No wonder maintenance costs so much!

 

Did you bother to read and understand message #92 ?

Not to put too fine a point on it (and I don't mean any disrespect), but if you just slap the motor back together without bothering to properly re-timing it - just hoping that the timing is still close enough because the belts "are the same" - then in my book at least, that would put you pretty firmly into the "hack mechanic" category if you ask me.

Ray

 

Just changing the belts isn't going to get it 100%. Especially when you consider that the crank turns one gear, which in turn turns two additional gears. These two gears then turn two gears via a belt. So you are telling me that none of this needs adjustment when you install new timing belts? Not only do you have to take into consideration the timing of the cam in relation to the crank, but also the relationship of the cams to each other on the right bank vs. the left bank.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume for a second that the diameter of the driven gear (where the cam belt picks up) is about 3 inches in diameter. That means the circumference would be approximately 9.4 inches (based on 3.14159). If you divide that circumference by 360 degrees, then each degree is .026" of an inch. That means a 1 degree difference at the driven gear would manifest itself as a 1/2 mm shift.

Now you might be able to get away with that sort of stuff when you swap belts on a Ford or Chevy - or even a Honda or Toyota - but I really think it's a bad idea on a $100K Ferrari. I'm not saying you can't do it. What I'm saying is that it's not the correct way to do it. Myself, I wouldn't even do it on a Honda or Toyota. When I have built motors, I have always timed the cam(s) in relation to the crank and pistons. Put a dial indicator on the piston and make sure it's at TDC - not close, but exactly. Then mark TDC on a degree wheel with a pointer bolted to the block. Once this is done, then check where the cam lobe picks up based on the cam/motor specs in relation to the crank. This should be done on both the intake and exhaust valves.

I'm not saying people aren't out there using your method of swapping in/out belts. I'm just saying it's not the method you should use if you want it 100%

The simple answer is: re-time the motor.

Ray

 

Do not do a hack job on your car. The pros are laughing at you. First you do very sketchy diagnosis but you appear to have found a problem hopefully the "only" one. Second you really have no idea how this motor works. Third you obviously have not read the workshop manual to figure it out. Fourth you are using faulty reassembly logic but you may get lucky. I bet if you walked across the street and did not look both ways first you probably will not die. But hey its your life your car. Why don't you do Fchaters a favor and post the VIN of your car. I hope I make you mad so you will do the job at least kind of right. Read the manual and do some research on variable valve timing. There is a specific way to assemble cams to get a running car and there is a specific way to get a properly running car. You are on your way to bend valves so why don't you just buy them today? People here will give you good advice if you follow it. Otherwise they will be tuning in quietly to watch the bonfire.