So.Ca 0117S a barn find by M.MASSINI 2006

my pleasure...
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Hi, Classiche will do just about anything you want if you are willing to pay. It won;'t do any harm to contact them and see what they say.. Send them all the info you have and pictures{thanks much for the ones posted]. They may be more agreeable to helping knowing you really have 083. They will also be able to tell you what other parts you will need in addition to the box to make the whole packare work.There was a period box on E-bay a month or so ago.Get hold of Tom Schaughnessy and Marcel Massini who can advise you on this. You might also consider an ad in Cavallino and Ferrari Market Letter for a period box. Contact the good restoration shops in Europe and post threads in Ferrarichat France, the UK and Italy.Network everyone you can thing of. Something will come up eventually. Good luck and keep me posted. And keep the pictures coming. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

If you become Rossa Subscribed to Ferrari Chat you can post as many photo's as you want to.

 

Martteen

Only you can answer certain questions. You've started down a very interesting road but there are no RIGHTS or WRONGS.
Your car is what it is. Your quest has brought you closer to what it once was. A period correct gearbox would be a futher step in that direction. A re body back to it's original form would as well but the very nice re body that is currently on the car might make you happier and that's what I urge you to do. Make yourself happy. You could hand this project over to Classiche and they could return it to the state it once was by replicating the missing parts but sadly various parts of what it was originally are gone forever. What it is today is wonderful and better for your efforts but in the end only you can answer where you want to go from here. Classiche can build a new gearbox that would be "period correct" and who knows you may even be able to find a real gearbox or failing that a real gearbox case and bell housing and replicate suitable internals.

Enjoy The Journey

 

Tongascrew,thank you for the piece of advice.There is many thinks very interesting to do,thank you,but If you can know a Gearbox ,don't hesitate contact me.

 

Napolis, my reply will be to find a period gearbox but only if is was impossible,I put in 0117S a rebuilt gearbox by Classiche:I want to take time to find a true Gearbox.but we are all right a classiche gearbox will be also correct with replicate numbers internal.
It is not my way to replace and original Motto body,I have bought this car for his current body and for nothing else !

 

I'll keep an eye out for an original gearbox and let you know if I come accross one. I'd keep the current body as well. Congrats on finding correct engine!

Best

 

Guy,

What do you know about the engine?

What is the condition?

It appears to be converted to coil-springs; who did it?

 

Jack, this engine is entirely rebuilt by the well know Piet Roelofs (Holland) in years" 90".
The engine has only 1500 / 2500 kms it seems in perfect condition except the grey cylinder head paint that I begin to brusch away and I polish it.

quite napolis : I'll keep an eye out for an original gearbox and let you know if I come accross one. I'd keep the current body as well. Congrats on finding correct engine!

Many thanks .

 

Guy,

I am by no means an expert, but rather don't remove incorrect paint with a (wire?) brush, as it takes the surface structure of the part away or damages it.
There are very gentle ways of media-blasting it off, preserving the original look of the part.
I don't think any part of the head or valve-covers was aoriginally polished. It's not a Jaguar.

 

Don't disquiet Jack, I take care to damages it .
I dont the word you said ? SURFACING ? the head valve covers,no polished like a Jaguar ! I know very well the 3.4 l jaguar engine because I have owned a XK 140 Cabriolet during 15 years.

 

The engine pics are great. Keep them etc coming. The heads are definitely not original as far as the valve springs go. It would be worth looking into refitting the original mouse trap springs setup. This car has enough originality about it to justify this and would, I think, add to its value in the long run. Someone like Tom Shaughnessy would be a good person to contact about this. I am sure you can find contact info for both Tom and Marcel. Just go to Google.. It's nice "Napolis" has contacted you. He is as knowledgable as anyone on these early cars. See if you can find a good shop that can do a compression and leak down test on the engine which will tell you a lot abour the condition of the internals. Also drop the oil pan and flush it out. Save what ever original oil was in there as well as the flushing liquid[diesel fuel is good to use for this] and and strain both thru a vey fine filter. Examine what is left behind in the filter. It's like a doctor doing a blood test.You can even sweep a magnet thru these liquids an see what it picks up.This is just for a start. Stuff may have happened since that 1990 rebuild. Good luck. Keep us posted. This is a fascinating project you are undertaking. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Do not replace the newer valve spring conversion! The mouse springs are fine for a museum Garage Queen but not for a car that will be driven.

 

The compression will be taken and the engine tested in few weeks to see the condition of the internals by my friend who is also a Ferrari specialist.
I want to have an conserve ,an engine who will be in capacity to take road when I put it in 0117S.
I think to start the engine all the months to keep up it in excelent working order.
Yes it is a facinating project but I have beginning two years ago,and I have the impression it is very slow,yet I admit there are some progress since 2006/2007 .
I contact Tom Shaughnessy and marcel Massini.

 

How much worse are these motors with the mousetrap springs?

Given the degree which many people fetishize originality, this seems surprising to advocate replacing something that seems like it would have a real qualitative impact on the behavior of the car.

In other words -- if I wanted a reliable, modern car that looks like an old one, I'd get a replicar, maybe a cobra knock-off with a ford 4.6.

If I want to pretend to be fangio, I want to have the gear box to be balky when cold (if it was originally), I want the motor to have the same funky power band, I want the tires to have the same grip, I want the car to smell the same, sound the same, and so on; I want a real time machine. Please note -- this isn't the same thing as "worn out", I just want it to be exactly as it was

of course, I'm not a ferrari owner, I likely won't ever be (unless I can get the wife to like a gtc, which is unlikely), but I love driving and working on old cars because they're so different from modern cars.

I can understand why people converted these cars originally -- the mousetrap springs were probably hard to replace, but aren't there enough spare, operational original springs floating around, or companies that could make them today to the same specs as the originals.

Or maybe I'm wrong -- nobody can tell anything about the valve springs with the motor buttoned up. They sound the same, drive the same, feel the same, but one won't frag the engine randomly. If that's the case, I'll shut up and go back to lurking...
chris

 

You've answered your own question.

 

agree completely. For one thing, the mousetraps are a b!tch to install, although I understand the 12s are easier than those on the 4 cylinder cars. I only have experience w/ the 4s. The other thing is this - if you have ever looked at the moustrap springs and mountings up close, you'll see that with a pair of mousetraps working on one valve, you're actually getting the benefit of four separate springs working on the valve. Why all the redundancy? Because they break. I've never heard of a coil valve spring breaking.

the first picture show the special tools we fabricated to get the mousetrap springs depressed. Our tool got them depressed the first 70% of the way; then we used the tool (the black device at the center top) from the Lampredi 12 toolbox to depress the spring tabs the last 30% and hooked into the keepers that slide over the valve stems.
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Thanks for theses explanation Bryan.

 

Coil springs can break to if you rev the engine high enough under load...but the mousetrap springs are much more fragile. I have had coil springs break, back when I raced a 970cc Mini Cooper. It happens all the time in top level drag racing.

 

The other advantage of the coil springs is that it opens the possibility of valve-stem seals.

I'd certainly leave the conversion as is, if the car is to be used, reliability is a big contributor to driving pleasure.

 

Cool Tool!

Best 2 U 2.

In the Day these engines were rebuilt after every race and some failed before the Checker. I drove 002C on the Targa Florio and the engine failed. We rebuilt her with mousetraps and she finished my second attempt but a short time later she started making ominous sounds. We opened her up and found several broken springs. We sent her engine back to the Homeland, Sport Auto who after consultation with the Factory felt it was time for coil springs for several reasons. I drive this car long and hard and if this engine suffers catastrophic failure the oldest Ferrari Engine in Existence will no longer be with us.

The original gearboxes also have issues that can cause catastrophic failure. We sorted those as well. Keep in mind that many great Competition Ferrari's that suffered catastrophic engine failure in their post factory racing life simply had their original engines yanked and SB Chevrolet's dropped in.
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Jim,
...not only the the engines of Ferrari,....others too (..sic!)!

Ciao!
Walter

 

Sounds like you have a good mechanic/shop available. That's important. Be sure they do a leak down test. The compression test may show acceptable pressures but if the cylinders loses that pressure rapidly there is something wrong. Regarding the mouse trap springs from what I have heard the main problem is that there none 'on the shelf' from an OEM. The most important thing is to have the correct grade wire which is very difficult to find as there isn't much info available about exactly what wire you need or people who really know how to make the springs.I have seen working drawings for these springs but that's only the beginning.If I were to install these. I thinks I would consider Classiche doing it but not until being absolutely sure even they know everything there is to know.Glickenhaus is probably right. Unless you are absolutely confident in what is being done you are probably best off leaving things as they are. Hear is an idea.. Pack the engine into a van and drive to Maranello and sit down with the experts and see what they tell you. This could be kind of fun. Be sure to take extensive notes.Take a couple of the experts out for dinner.Ply them with good food and a lot of good wine and see what you come up with. If you decide to do this let me know. I might just come along. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Hi

That's exactly what we did with 002C's engine and gearbox and I described what they recommended and we did. That's where these photo's were taken.

Best
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Jim,

Second time I see the photo of 002's gearbox, and note that the bell-housing is somewhat angled to the axis of the box. I've heard of the angled bell-housings, but would you elaborate a little?

Sorry to be O/T.