Yeah I've seen a lot of people vanish because they can't answer the questions. Any point of view can be dismissed as flawed for any flawed reason, no one here has been in NASCAR or F1 and no one has driven the cars we're talking about no matter how close a car may look at a pay for play event. So placing a driver with more experience with road courses in the car for the few road courses is an excuse or good business? If 95% of the races are run on ovals and most of the testing and time are on ovals, it makes sense that oval drivers would be rusty or not as quick as road racers on the road courses. If F1 went oval for a race per season, would there be better drivers in the world for that event? A race that F1 drivers wouldn't practice most of the time because they're on road courses? Yes. You state your arguments for one direction but they are easily turned around to relate to both NASCAR and F1. Would Michael Schumacher be the best oval driver in his years of dominance? Would Hamilton be the fastest on an oval? Where did I say "larger pool" I said the community and more drivers with sons who want to race, the vast community dedicated to racing is something F1 doesn't have and numbers don't lie, there are about 4 times as many "sons" in NASCAR in a generation compared to F1 because there are 4 times as many drivers. It's logical that when surrounded by a world of information and people dedicated to one thing, that the children will learn it better than someone who ventures out to whatever city they're near to learn the same thing. That's why people learn other languages better when they go to the country and are surrounded by people, signs, books and the need to learn the language rather than spend the same amount of time but spread out over weekends and evenings studying in class rooms. Anyone can learn to cut down trees in a forest by learning what's involved and practicing but the son of a logger will absolutely have an advantage over someone who doesn't come from a logging family living near the woods day in and day out. Where in the F1 community is there a nucleus such as the one I mentioned for NASCAR. F1 has too few drivers spread too far out and travel to too many places for this tight grouping of knowledge and support. You say the kids can't hack it and I say the kids can't hack it because few kids try, how many F1 "sons" have there been compared to F1 dads who were actually successful? Not many at all. How many names have tried and failed at F1? How many kids even climb the ranks? There are a ton in NASCAR because I believe actually diving into the world of racing is different and more beneficial than going to weekend races 5 hours away as a kid and playing soccer/ whatever during the week like many kids do when they aren't able to live in the world they're trying to rule. Look at the Schumachers, both BROTHERS and both lasted a long time in F1, why? from an early age they were driving and it was a massive part of their life, didn't they have a track in their yard or live in a tiny community? Something that rivaled the NASCAR community. What are the odds that two brother would race in F1 for years on end? Where's the "extra special ability" that no one can explain? They got the same head start from a young age by doing it day in and day out, what are the odds this would happen if it didn't come down to "environment"? A billion to one? How many rocket scientists work along side siblings or are in the same field? The environment of a child determines what kind of things he's exposed to and if able, excel in whatever he's been doing day in and ay out. Why do small communities in Africa survive by growing crops in what I and the western would would consider dust? Because they grew up working it from kids and didn't get any vacation days. Why does the stereotype of young Asians exist along the likes of "they go to libraries for 10 hours a day even on weekends to become young doctors"? Because it's somewhat true for many, they dive in head first and don't come up for air, while the majority of the kids in their class party, or play sports etc. You name the kids of Brabham, Fittipaldi, Andretti, Piquet, Senna and Scheckter, some of their dads were great but you name 5 people, that's what you base your argument on? What's the back ground of their education? Universities need this as well to qualify students, and young drivers are students of racing. So out of the 5 kids, how many will race in F1? Easy answer so far. When you say "made it" do you mean champion? There's no guarantee that NASCAR sons become Champions either, just getting into the sport is what the goal is and that's usually where it ends. The Petty family only had the grandfather as a champ and his son and grandson didn't get far at all in terms of championships. Where did I say "innate" skill? Every time you guys reply, you answer a question I didn't ask or you change words. I said kids who grow up immersed in a specific field surrounded by people and information relating to that field. A young adult who wants to be a mechanic will have a better base for being one if his dad helps him work on the family cars during the evenings compared to a kid who has a science teacher for a dad. It's logical, proven and that is an indisputable fact. We're talking about the best drivers in the world and remind me if I'm mistaken but you don't race for a living. You can book all the seat time you want on the weekends and during vacation days but really, even driving coaches who are paid will have little idea of what it takes to be an elite F1 driver. If they had the talent or knew how to get it, they wouldn't be teaching you and I how to drive on weekends, even if they get offered rides once in a while for known television events. I don't mean to insult or belittle you, you seem to have quite the fine resume that's a heck of a lot fatter than mine but to say you know without doubt the exact skill set of an F1 and NASCAR driver is a giant leap. I have a trucking company that moves across this entire province, it doesn't mean I know the first thing about running FEDEX or UPS and if I were given the steering wheel of those companies I'm sure massive problems would arise because I'm not nearly on the level they are and we do the exact same job with the exact same vehicles. The small fact that they have tens of thousands of employees and thousands of trucks is enough to cancel me out, likewise with you and an F1/ NASCAR driver. At least I know it. You have been in cars that look like f1 cars and are called Formula cars but they are far from the real deal. You have raced on big tracks with other serious drivers, many people have and it's a blast but again to say from your limited experience in these look-a-likes that you have a total grasp on F1 driving talent isn't convincing at all. A race car designed with 150 hp is a "real" race car but not the F1 car we are talking about. Unless you raced in these series for a satisfactory amount of time how can you honestly say you know? Other drivers on track is an issue because that's where the problems occur, how many F1 and NASCAR drivers spin out on their own? Few. How many spin out as a result of contact with another car? The vast majority. Getting a car up to speed in a straight line is easy, F1 or NASCAR, that's why so many people get killed on city streets, they get to 100 mph and then a turn and the car goes in the ditch. So knowing how to control the car fully when being passed or making a pass is where all of a drivers skill comes into play. So many F1 passes put other cars off the track or wings get taken off etc and they only have a few passes each race. Also on starts, how many times has the safety car been sent out because not all cars could file through the first corner? Talented drivers know you must finish the race to score points. You shouldn't become numb to the speed by acclimatize to it, NASCAR and F1 cars would have the same issue here. You say with every turn in F1 you have to be on edge and have your wits. Above you said it takes big balls to drive a stock car, why wouldn't you have your wits and edge when driving at 190 mph next to a wall? You seem to contradict yourself here like many have. High speed = wits, why would it matter what vehicle you're in? Plenty of F1 drivers go on to win in other series? or race in them? Name the former F1 drivers that have a crown in NASCAR or a top 5 finish after a year. NONE. If Tony Stewart applied for a license to drive in F1 do you think he would get it? I do, he's driven on dirt for rallies, sprint cars, all sorts of stock cars and he's been a NASCAR champ. Take him from the NASCAR ranks and put him in F1 with the same amount of seat time As Kimi or Massa had growing up and you would see a dominate driver. He's like Michael Schmacher, can race many different cars and win championships in them. Why would a talented driver in NASCAR abandon his career and future earnings to join a different series that spans the contents with different cars? Montoya won races in F1 and was a threat from the start of his career, he passed the best when he was in a somewhat equal car, what has he done in NASCAR? He's still young and talented. People that grew up racing open wheeled cars like Scott Speed failed at F1 for whatever reason and the same company places him in another series where they have a car. Would Scott Speed get a ride if Red Bull didn't pave and pay the way into F1 and NASCAR for him? I don't know but to say he went to NASCAR because it was easier isn't exactly true, his sponsor who has a boat load of money in him, will try to find a series that he will be a champion in so they can collect some the cash they invested in him. Why didn't Ralf or Mika H. or any other big name in F1 go to NASCAR? Why don't the small fishes that have to pay their way. By the way you say it, Vettle and the like would make millions in NASCAR easily and build a great reputation for themselves, how about the drivers that only race for a season or so? None of them make it to NASCAR where there is more than enough money and fame to pay the bills, get their name in the papers, build a resume and refinance another shot at F1. It doesn't happen because? It's not easy? You tell me. Again I didn't say "innate skill" you did and I agree, genes don't mean replica. So who now has "flawed" arguments? At least I read your questions and answer them on point. You say Kyle Petty and Earnhardt JR, neither has come close to winning a championship and they are in the top 5 of famous sons of recent memory, who else can you name? Not many because there aren't "that" many sons who make it into NASCAR and drive well. The ones that do are the Earnhardt types, the ones who have been buried in NASCAR for their entire lives. NASCAR is a business and if the "sons" did poorly they would get bounced out like garbage and replaced with more talented drivers. No "son" has even done an awful job in NASCAR, they've either won a bunch of races or got bounced out quickly. You recall the names because they're famous due to their fathers. So that point is clearly shot to ribbons, there aren't many "sons" in NASCAR and those that are are winners. Do the rest of the US suck at driving? Why aren't there winners from Boston, CA etc? Because they don't get the benefit of living the NASCAR lifestyle from age 2. Your whole quoted post above this reply is based on assumptions or just bad information and that's where you derive the "NASCAR is easy compared to F1" argument. Just like all before you. Incorrect info = poor ideas. We can go back and rehash all of these points but I don't see even one point from your guys' side of the argument as being factual or on point that can't be turned around and pointed at F1. It's quite tiring having to reply to 4 or 5 different people on the same topic, so if you have a point or a question list it but my replying to ever little point will have to end. It takes too long and you guys don't seem open to much on this subject. When it's all boiled down, you fellas can like and dislike whatever you want and I'll be pleased that you're pleased but go over in your minds, have you given NASCAR a chance? Do you fully understand the sport or do you just know the phrase "can't turn right?" I don't need to know those answers and I can guess who has though them through before because I have. I snubbed my nose at NASCAR before just like other motor sports/ sports in general and it's idiotic. We're not pros, we really don't know jack about the lives and talent of strangers, no matter how glued we are to the tv or our weekend warrior badges. Also I believe F1 drivers have it harder because they have to go from top speed down to 1st gear turns on most tracks and have to learn more turns but none of you brought that up, it's a huge point and factual but most of the posts were anti-NASCAR, cliches, steroetypes, jabs at me etc. Not a 100% focus on the differences of the sports, just a firm belief that you guys had to shoot down my points no matter what. If that wasn't your intentions, alright but you had better have a talk with your subconscious minds because that's how all of your posts read. I also think the huge changes to F1 this year will make it much more exciting, although the beauty of the cars is gone and I will watch at least the first couple of races... on the edge of my seat... waiting for someone to actually be able to pass without the driver in front making a mistake because I think that's the vast majority of F1's issues with attendance, viewership and overall negativity. P.S. I'm not combing through all of this for spelling mistakes, so if you find a lot, call my lawyer!
And you turned into a ghost when I proved your facts wrong, like the meaningless victories and the incorrect points system you mentioned.
I like the fantasy world you have created. You make up the rules for discussion as you go...just as long as they always are in your favor....or should I say, NASCAR's favor. The only one so far that has been shown to be incorrect is you. The funny part is that you're the only one who doesn't think so. That's fine but it still doesn't change reality, no matter how many paragraphs of "information" you post. The others haven't "left" the discussion. They have simply just decided to watch the show that you've created...trust me, you've done a fabulous job all on your own.
Other than forgetting they changed the points when they adopted the chase, what facts didi I get wrong. The only runner was you as you answered none of my questions to you. You just got argumentative.
Unfortunately, those who are so stuck on their way of thinking will not look at another view, regardless that it is all only opinion.
Yeah I already said that. I also answered every question put to me while "others" ignored questions they couldn't answer and left the discussion when they were proven wrong on the simplest of points. So say what you want, I laid all my cards on the table and was as clear as possible while others threw jabs as they tried to avoid questions about basic points.
I'm not going through that all again, your side stated things you called facts and they were guesses from weekend warriors, I pointed this sort of thing out for a couple of pages and got cliches and stereotypes in return, so clearly the debate is shut down. Some people claim facts when they're hearsay pieces of information others point out something that rings true for F1 and NASCAR and then back track to try and rephrase to eliminate the comparison. It's only F1 and NASCAR, enough bytes have been used on this topic for this month. We'll see how Scott Speed does in the next few months.
Please, point them out. Shut me up. Otherwise, realize that your opinion is your own. And those that disagree with you have their own. You LOVE Nascar. We get it. But only trying to validate your points while ignoring others is ignorant. With that, unless you point out false facts, I am through with you and your views.
I've answered every question sent my way and pointed out the flaws I've seen in the arguments, go back and have a read. Ignoring? I didn't ignore anything and if you use the word ignorant again I'll call the police on your mother and report her for dropping you so many times on your soft head. I also said before I don't love NASCAR, or F1. Someone can easily debate an argument without even liking the position but people with closed minds can't, guess which side you fall on? BTW Nice tone, anger denotes losing your cool and the argument.
The only one with an angry tone is you. You don't know what to do when someone directly challenges you. I suggest you reread the comments I made and find the answers you gave me. You won't because you can't. And finally, your ignorance is only matched by your inability to recognize it.
If you don't think these comments are ignorant, you need to look at yourself a little deeper. At no time was any comment made directly toward your person, only your ignorance. And ignorant people always respond by name calling because their points are only valid to themselves. So, I am sure that your ignorance and ignorant comments total the same as the number of posts in this thread.
Yes, everything is hearsay, but you should give some credit to people who have driven cars similar to the real thing (or the real thing as in some cases) even if the speeds were lower and it wasn't a real race. Having done the Petty experience doesn't make me an expert in all things NASCAR (far from it), but it did give me a baseline on where it stands compared to F1. More importantly it was fun. Look, NASCAR is cool for what it is. In my book F1 is better. But that's my book, not necessarily yours.
Ignorant because they don't side with your opinions? And name calling? You've called me ignorant a dozen times you fool. So were the comments directed at me or not? You can't go two posts without tripping over yourself. *rolls eyes again*
More babble that makes no sense. You can keep sniping and throwing jabs all you want but this will get to a nasty place quickly if you continue down the path. I've answered every question I saw, the answers have been posted.
I gave one of the posters credit as he's raced a few different car at different tracks but that doesn't make him an expert it makes hima novice driver who probably doesn't get paid to drive or paid to coach, so he's 1 of a million in the USA and 1 of 30 million in the world that takes part in his hobby/ passion. Hardly an authority on the top drivers in the world. And "real thing"? Who here drove a real NASCAR car? No one has said they did, stock cars can range from 4 cylinder cars all the way up to the big league and I doubt anyone drove a NASCAR full tilt for any length of time and if they did who would let them drive it full throttle? Yeah the 3 days courses are fun, a blast to end all enjoyment but no way can a person take a leap from that to driving an F1/ NASCAR in a race, it's nonsense. This has gone frome debate to sharp jabs, anyone can reply if they want but the mood it seems has turned.
The real thing was in relation to my F1 car experience, where I actually did drive the real deal. And a friend of mine owned a real Winston Cup car and drove it hard and in anger (meaning in racing). I got very close to driving it myself, but he sold it before I had a chance to. Prices for real NASCARs start in the five figure range, so don't be so quick to exclude people from having that experience. A 360 costs more and quite a few folks on here have those.
