Jim Russell or Ski Barber

My son has just got his licence and I'd like to enroll him in one of these schools courses for driver's education, probably just the one day course but would consider a two day if it fit his needs and was worth it. From what I saw Jim Russell has a one day only and skip Barber had more options. I'd consider only the Skip Barber Laguna Seca venue(preferred location wise) or the Jim Russell Infineon location. I'm wondering which of the two would be best for us, please share experiences and if multiple days and which would be best given his very early driving skills. My main concern is that he have accident avoidance skills and be able to correct a slide. Are these courses worth it?

Jeff

PS: Do these course allow the father to be an active observer, meaning in the car?(I assume not with skip barber-looks like they use Miatas)

 

Many questions, here are a few answers and observations. While not personally familiar with the Jim Russell program, it has a great reputation, talented staff and a pleasant venue. Full disclosure requires me to say that I am more than a bit familiar with Skip Barber Racing School Regional Chief Instructor Randy Buck (I'm on the current Instructor roster), who is headquartered at Laguna Seca. He and his program are exceptional and I can't recommend him enough!

First off, I applaud your obvious support and enthusiasm for equipping your son at the most appropriate time in his driving career with the proper tools that will keep him safe while having fun learning. Great work!

The one-day JRRS and SBRS programs are both very good and the school curricula is very similar. That said, people tend to take away more good habits and technique from a two-day program. Partially because there is a calmer, more measured approach to instilling the information, but including the most important aspect of being able to "sleep on it" overnight and leverage the first days knowledge into progress the second day.

THE most important aspect of the SBRS school, and congruent with your stated goals for your son, is the emphasis on car control, visual training (both essential for successful accident avoidence) and extensive skidpad training.

The two-day program allows more retained knowledge, pushing the conscious response more towards unconscious competence, especially in regard to braking and turning to avoid and managing skids without aggravating the loss of control.

In answer to your question, both programs would achieve what you are looking for for your son, but I would recommend the two-day car control program by SBRS based on my knowledge of the staff and curriculum.

Not aware of JRRS policies on parents or other non-student observers. In SBRS, I think you would be welcome to observe, but there is no capability for you to participate in the exercises with him (unless you enter, too ). Best thing to do is to call the schools directly.

Good luck and have fun.

 

Jeff,

Skip Barber would be my choice, I did their BMW High Performance Two Day Driving School in the early 90's and the three day racing school at Laguna in 1999. Great instructors and quite a bit of seat time. Have fun.

Cheers,
Rhett

 

Even though Russell is a client, I really don't recommend that your son learn at Infenion. It's a double black and any mistake there is a potential disaster. Laguna is only slightly better, there are places there that a mistake could be a major problem. I'd suggest courses at Willow Springs, Thunderhill, or perhap Pheonix. Those tracks are safe.

Art

 

the intro or "high performance" courses are pretty tame at both tracks though. OP doesn't sound like he's looking for a racing school.

 

almost certainly not.

 

+1 for Skip Barber. I've done their Mazda MX-5 school at Road Atlanta and could not have been more pleased with the curriculum,
time on track, feed back and the quality of the instructors. A very professional bunch. And if you are lucky enough to get Terry Yearwood as an instructor - you get the "Blue Collar Comedy Tour" AND driving instruction all wrapped into one! What a great guy!

Good luck.

Gordon.

 

Thanks for your response, Peter, pretty much sews up going to Laguna Seca for me then. Shorter drive, we always have a great time there so pretty much decides it. I got my defensive driving skills powersliding around our properties dirt roads at 14 years old, my son really hasn't had that benefit so this should be very good for his skills and prepare him the suprises driving brings.

For most the other responses, thanks for the responses, but I'm not looking for race training, just driving skills for a new driver and defensive skills.

When I take him this summer, I'll report on our experiences.

Jeff

 

Thanks, Jeff. You'll find Randy Buck and his crew will fill the bill perfectly for that.

 

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I know it is not Jim Russell or Skip Barber but this is good for a newly licensed driver. I did this one at TMS in Fort Worth five years ago. You might check it out as I think they do one at Infineon. Cost is right...............

I have done the Skip Barber two day and it was very good. Have not done Russell so I cannot comment on his school. But for a new driver the Audi Driving Experience is a very good vehicle for the new driver.....

 

both russell and barber have great reputations.

If it were me, I would pick it based on the venue. And not sure how others feel, but Infineon is a way more fun track that Laguna. I think people lean towards Laguna because of the history, not because of the track. Infineon has way more elevation change as well as corners that are linked together which are more rewarding when driven properly, and IMO teaches better car control than Laguana where the majority of the turns are isolated from each other.

(full disclosure - I probably have 80 hours at Infineon vs maybe 30 at Laguna)

 

Jones,

Not sure the purpose but if just got license and you looking for more a performance driving school with emphasis on teen safety check out fastlane http://www.raceschool.com/ at willow springs but do it soon before it gets to hot. After june the track temp can get 100+ and your brain goes to mush. If you go any later Laguna is better but it still gets hot because it is in an inland valley.

 

not going to matter for a "performance driving" or "advanced skills" type course, where most of the course will be on the skid pad anyway.

i would pick based on the quality of instruction myself ...

 

For a "new drivers" course or even just a driving school, its primarily done in the paddock anyway. The race track is irrelevant. At Skip Barber, we use the paddock of Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca for our driving schools and setup different exercises like skid pad, lane change, braking, etc. Throughout my time at Skip Barber, I speak with parents who have enrolled their teens in the school. They LOVE the program and are able to feel at ease when their teen is driving on the streets. I have had parents who have enrolled two-three-four of their kids through our program throughout the years. IMO, every parent should enroll their teen through a program like ours or any other major driving school to help them become safe and smart drivers. There would be way less teen driving deaths if we gave them the proper drivers education that they deserve.

Let me know if you have any questions, I've been coaching with Skip Barber for the past 6 years and can assist you with any info you may need.

Thanks,
Robbie Montinola

 

Good to know, I didn't think Willow would have such a class. Would have to use our own car though, not sure I'd want to do that.

Willow Springs is almost as far as Laguna-seca for me so we might as well make a vacation out of it as well!

Jeff

 

WRONG!

I'm sorry, Mr. sans spare, but Robbie, I and the others on the current instructor roster at Skip Barber Racing Schools DO NOT EVER advocate "never lifting" as an active part of skid control. As a matter of fact, SBRS and it's instructors independently ALWAYS teach the opposite. IF you want more information, read Carl Lopez's book "Going Faster." That was the first habit Bruce MacInnes had to cure me of in 1986 at Lime Rock Park on the skidpad...

Keeping in the gas, "on the edge" is just another way to hit whatever you were going to hit FASTER and HARDER!

Drifting is cool in safe, controlled environments, but requires a different set of disciplines not designed to keep young people alive.

 

^^ Yes, to properly save a skid/slide, you must be off ALL the pedals (gas, brake, clutch) and just work your hands on the steering wheel to gain control of the car. Like ProCoach said, if you stay on the throttle, you're just going to crash harder and faster. There are more advanced techniques that include stuff like powerslides and drifting, but these are not taught in our New Driver's School, which is geared for accident avoidance and has nothing to do with high performance driving.

Now for the track, you shouldn't lift off the throttle in the middle of a corner since this transfers weight to the front and you lose rear grip, resulting in oversteer or a spin. Maybe this is what you're referring to when you say don't lift off the throttle. But on a skidpad or in a situation where you are skidding/sliding, you must come off the throttle to catch the slide.

 

True in a car, but probably wrong on a bike. Get the rear tire loose, and if you get off the gas, expect a high side.

Art

 

yeah, i have no expertise in bikes, so i wont go there

 

Probably see Robbie and Peter on June 6th looks like. Thanks for the help, looking forward to it. Probably even drive the Fcar up, been dying to do HWY 1 in it up to Carmel.

Jeff

 

Just got back, great weekend in Carmel/Monterey. Weather iffy on the drive up Friday but ended up with near zero rain on the drive and beautiful conditions on arrival and through the weekend. Skip Barber new driver's school was a great experience for my son, he thoroughly enjoyed it and I think learned a lot. Instructors were Brian Germanne and Benny (can't remember last name) in car and Ricky Schmidt in the classroom. Great guys. Only four students so they got a lot of time in and great instructor to student ratio.

Thinking of doing the two day driving course next, just not sure when to do it. Brian thought a few months would be best, I was thinking longer given his driving experience-only licenced for three months and permit for about 5 months prior to that. They do throw the sales pitch in there so I just wondered what would be best. Was thinking I would do it my self possibly. I'd like to work my way up to some of the racing schools, nothing too serious just would like to feel comfortable on the track a few weekends a year. For my son, obviously just get him feeling confident and be able to anticipate and avoid accidents, defensive driving skills a must, not speed. Any advice appreciated.

Jeff

 

Oh man, I forgot you were coming... I was working the 3Day School on the 6th @ Laguna! Glad it was a good learning experience for your son. Hope to see you guys back soon, I would suggest the 2Day High Performance school for the both of you or just you. This way you get to do all the paddock exercises + get some track experience on Day 2. Let me know if you have any questions...

Thanks,
Robbie

 

Just saw this thread and have a son who has been driving for a year and a half (accident free now, knock on wood).

Things are very different than they were 40+ years ago when I learned to drive. The basic drivers ed course was woefully inadequate, so I did a lot of one on one and basically crash proofed him. After he had his license for about 3 months I took him to the BMWCCA/SCCA sponsored "Street Survival" course. It is an excellent one day course with some car control and accident avoidance drills incorporated, with few hours in the classroom and then about 4 hours on the close course at the Tire Rack test site.

I would highly recommend a course like this for a young driver before the Skip Barber type of thing if for no other reason than if you do the SB kind of course with too little experience it is not going to be as productive. Once they start to feel a little more comfortable in the car then you most definately should do the more advanced training. I realize that the professional courses have a great package and are tailored to each driver with a given experience level, but my thought is that with a little more seat time behind their belts they will get a lot more out of the course. Taking them to higher level course too early is like making them drink from a fire hose, there is going to be more there than they will be able to absorb.

 

Thought about the BMW Street Survival class as well. I yearly donate in the raffle for it, haven't won anything yet, but did look into it for my son. Can't remember the details but I think logistically it just wasn't workable. Curious what the cost for that class was as well.

The Skip Barber class was very similar to what you describe the Street Survival class was. I'd highly recommend it to anyone in a similar situation.

As far as taking him to a next level driving school I'm just not sure still when would be best. One advantage of doing it in the next six months is that he's still got what he's learned fresh in his mind but I can also see the benefit of waiting a year or so, so that he gains more experience and could get more out of it.

Jeff