F 40 vs F 450

If Ferrari can make hybrid upsides bigger than hybrid downsides, they will probably get embrased...

 

depends... most are predicting the end of the world due to the economic climate. Jim was stating that enzos were going to be somewhere around 300k (IIRC, please correct me if I have misspoken) and F50s F40s and 288s even lower... with that kind of market id expect even the truly classics to take a hit as well.

But with the FDIC possibly going belly up... people might throw there money at cars... its really hard to say... I guess the bottom line is... its ALL speculation when it comes to future values

 

Whatever direction Ferrari goes, someone will complain about it. Up until now, comments on the 430 and 599 were along the lines of "Performance is great, but it looks like crap. Someone explain to me why they don't fire the guy in the styling dept". Now I see the commentary has reversed based on Jim's note above.

I think Ferrari is on the right track. Very few people track these cars, so the performance of the road cars is really not as important (relatively speaking). Of course, they are not saying that it isn't important at all. Performance will have to be top tier because of the brand and the competition. What we are missing these days is the old flavor of what made a car an exotic car. They need to shock you.

This is good news. Road cars will be spectacular examples of automotive art with a competitive level of performance that we expect from a Ferrari. If that isn't good enough for you and a no compromise, hardcore version is more of your cup of tea, then you can ante up to the non-street legal version.

 

Ferrari has a much more diverse line of cars than ever before.

Ferrari offers the extreme hard edge racercars in terms of the FXX programs. Then the Challenge race series. Then the very very special production road cars like the Enzo. And then the special road cars like the 16M and Scud. And finally the regular road cars- in both sport and gt.

Was his statement about changing focus from pure performance to driving experience directed specifically at the regular production road cars?

The reality may very well be true, that for these customers there is not much demand to improve 0-60 time from 3.1 to 3.0 seconds or increase the top speed from 202 to 205 in this category. I am sure that the new F430 replacement will have a performance envelope slightly better than the SCUD (the F430 was faster than the CS).

I don't think that what he said would necessarily apply to the other classes. Why not? Because customers who buy those cars want the most extreme performance.

 

600 hp is a lot. It's what many top tier race cars used to hover around... and not far above that even today. It's not just the punch, but how the power can be applied out of the exit... the chassis' balance, hard and enduring braking; and chassis dynamics... rigidity, geometry, and damping. Finally, tire technology is the Ace in the Hole. These dynamics can all be changed without so much as adding power.

Having ultimate power has already happened largely... the Veyron, and specialty tuners like Hefner Performance, Lingenfelter Performance Engineering, Hennesey, 9FF, Ruf, etc. who push the limits of a platform for the sake of pushing the limits.

Battery technology is near a zenith; and has been this way for nearly 100 years. There have been some advancements; but hardly anything worth making a Ferrari out of. Enzo would turn in his grave; as would our fore bearers. What is emotions are held in a electric whine? The more a company like Ferrari focus on appeasement of the Green parties of the world, the more their clientele will choose to go elsewhere. I'd hate to think that I'd see the end of the Ferrari brand.


I don't want to see the day I don't lust after a new Ferrari...

 

As far as I'm concerned, we've reached near the peak of performance. I suspect that we aren't able to use any additional HP in these cars. If they soften the cars up, they won't be Ferraris in my humble opinion. They might as well just re-brand them as either Mercedes or Prosches.

Art

 

I agree, but you have to remember most new cars have gotten pretty porky and some need that power. The days of the 3000 pound car are just about gone, sucks.

 

If this means a return to smaller lighter cars I'm for it.
Unless you're racing performance stats are only good for bragging rights and have little validity in real world driving.
As Stirling Moss once observed there's nothing as boring as doing 200 mph on a straight flat track. Driving at 9/10s be it at 200, 150, 100 or even 40 MPH is what's exciting.
IMHO the Super cars of today have limits so high that they are unreachable on the street and available only to the best of drivers even on the track.
Driving a light low open car gives great a sensation of speed that is impossible to duplicate in a super car at anything resembling sane road speeds.
A twenty five hundred pound F-Car with 300 HP and a minimum of electronic aids would be a great thing.
Not that I'd kick a 599 out of my garage.

 

Too true man... too true
It is truly disgraceful to think about all the regulations that designers, and engineers are having to work around these days.

 

For those who cringe at the thought of hybrid Ferraris, let me ask you this: The majority of transportation cannot be powered by petroleum forever. Do you think it is possible for the upper echelon of the automotive market to stay strictly petroleum powered while the rest of the industry moves toward a new power source?

Im all for hybrids/electric/alternative fuels if they can make the cars engaging and fun to drive, with a high level of performance. I am sure Ferrari can pull that off, for other manufacturers, I am somewhat skeptical. Will it ever be the same? Probably not. Bottom line: hold on to your F40s.

 

When did oil ever stop being created? Will we consume faster than what is being made? Possibly. Is 100 year old technology which hasn't changed the answer (Read: Batteries) No. Are there other alternatives for the internal Combustion engine? Yes. Is there an alternative to the Internal Combustion Engine? No.

Holding on to those F40's seems like a good idea

 

You think so?

 

We already are consuming far faster than what is being made. We use way more petroleum than we discover every year, and we use way, way more than is created new every year. That is not a possibility, it has already been happening for a long time.

One day, most cars will not be powered by internal combustion engines. I dont know when that day will be, I just hope they are fun to drive.

 

I would hope something like this is possible.

Gasoline will eventually become prohibitively expensive to the average consumer, in which case hybrids/full electrics/alternative sources will become the norm. It would seem that most exotic buyers would be unaffected by ridiculous fuel prices... it would just become part of the expense of owning an exotic (like belt services were) and considering the minimal mileage most cars are driven, really not a huge expense anyways (even at 4x todays prices).

Additionally, because of the minimal usage, reducing emissions by switching fuels would amount to less than a drop in the bucket. There's no point in worrying about the emissions from such a small segment of vehicles until the vast majority of vehicles (personal, cargo etc) change... don't fix what aint broke!

 

Aston Martin showed an SUV Lagonda prototype in Geneva.
Things at Ferrari could be a lot worse.

 

I would agree strongly with Jims sig in that I want visceral excitement when I push that pedal to the floor..period.

I understand the Scud is slightly faster than the F50 around the track, but the raw feel of the F50 is what I want, not m9 bazillion electronic nannies telling me when and how I can shift or saving me from poor driving skills (ABS).


EVO magazine stated that the F50 is the most rewarding car to push the limits in a head to head comparison with the other Ferrari supercars, not the fastest because obviously the Enzo is faster.

isn't that what Ferraris are supposed to be all about? excitement?

 

I think so.

 

As I recall, 2008 was the year of Oil Discovery; finding numerous locations that are expected to hold more oil than that of the entire middle east.

 

We all do Jim, hopefully Ferrari can get back on track and make a car that will kill anything on the track or road.

 

Perhaps they should just start building the F40 or F50 again. Would save a lot in terms of R&D.

 

It won't fill their pockets so they won't.

Market's gone from what the makers think is an awesome car to the making of cars based on market research (Ferrari California).

 

Going by what I've read in here it's not. I bet 90% of the members in here (who can drive) would rather a F40 or F50 then an Enzo. I know I'd take an F40....

 

After you drive all three you may change your mind.

 

You don't need to worry if gasoline runs out. It's not too difficult to convert a gasoline-powered car to alcohol. There will always be alcohol on this planet. This much I promise you.

 

Kinda doubt that, I'm not into all the electronic nannies in the Enzo. I have an SCCA license, I have no issues with driving. The F40 would be my choice. On looks alone it wins IMO.