6 Speed Vs. Paddles

Actually, you were bashing me because my opinion is different from yours.
At no point did I attack you.
And I still maintain my stance that the F1 transmission is an overcomplicated solution to a problem that does not exist.

Technology for the sake of technology does not improve the product.
A real racing transmission uses straight cut dog cut gears, and can be shifted without the clutch.
They are not used in street cars, as the gearbox is too noisy
The Ferrari "F1" is a street transmission modified to have a computer, hydraulic pumps etc do the shifting when a button is pushed.
Net Net is that it is still an automatic transmission.

 

posted here on F chat
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=551

<snip>
The "cambio manuale" is more involving and entertaining to drive without the worries for F1 pumps or other related things braking down.
<snip>

It will be interesting to see how long this car remains on the market as compared to the more common F1 transmission cars.

 

Fred- No, two of us just joked about your post. You then came back and said since we disagreed with you, we did not know how to drive a manual transmission car. Devolved from there.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Agree. My son had a BMW 540i with a 'touchtronic.' I was nothing more fancy than my father's Ford LTD, when you would shift from second to drive. There was a distinct lag and bump.

Tiptronic is the same. Just an automatic shifter.

The F-1 is an automatic clutch but a manual shift. Much different.

BUT, I prefer the gated, clutched, shifter.

 

Everyone forgets that the 355 F1 does NOT rev match. If you want a smooth downshift, you have to heel-toe just like you do with the manual.

And the sound IS different. The way the throttle is applied during upshifts gives a bark that is spine tingling. In the 355, that alone is worth it.

Plus, I enjoy telling people "this is the first road going car to incorporate the F1 derived paddle operated shifting system. A wonderful example of race car technology being applied to production cars from Ferrari."

If you have other stick shift cars in the stable, an F1 is a fun addition. And if you want some old-school in the mix, a 355 is a great way to go.

 

If you consider it in the light of the other thread on "Less power, more noise" in the future - and they really do make lighter simpler sports cars with more soul -

Wouldn't a return to the conventional gated shifter kind of fit will with that philosophy?

I.E. - like Lotus?

 

Good summary.

 

J. Salmon- You are right, the 355 F1 attempts to match revs, but with throttle travel limitations due to not having a digital throttle, it cannot do it, as you noted. What do you do, give it a burst of throttle while heel and toeing or brake with your left foot and use your right on the throttle? Another question, since I have never driven an F1 355, is does the throttle have enough travel to back off sufficiently on upshifts, or is it necessary to back off on the throttle a bit for normal shifts?

An aside on that is that some F1 cars no longer give the driver the option of right foot braking and have separate footwells for throttle and brake.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Cars are intensely personal. All that matters is what is right for you. If your driving experience is made better by having a hand crank instead of an electric starter, than the hand crank is right for you. If you get a kick out of driving a car with drum brakes, then drum brakes are for you.

Me, I'm not so big on hand cranks or drum brakes, but I gotta have three pedals and a shift knob. All my cars have that, from sports car down to my daily drivers Mercedes. A 2 pedal Ferrari is not going to work for me, I don't care how much faster it can shift the car than I can, how much faster it is around a track, how high tech it is, how much it is the "future," etc. But that's just me.

 

There are few, if any, that allow any movement at all off the pedal.

 

They are noisy because of the straight cut gears, not because of the dogs. (You could easily put dog engagement on helical cut gears.) They are not used in street cars because of 2 main reasons, 1. dogs are difficult to shift under street conditions, and 2. they have high maintenance requirements.

Not at all! It may operate like an automatic as far as driver controls, but the car would be completely different (awful) if it had an automatic transmission.

 

I fail to see what significant part of the F1 system is derived from Formula 1.

 

The problem with the F1 transmission (besides being boring) is that it is now obsolete. Future cars will have a dual clutch, and the "must have" crowd will gravitate en masse. The 6 speed is timeless and offers a continual challenge for those with a sense of adventure.

 

mousecatcher- When Ferrari first introduced the paddle shift system in Formula 1, it was an electro-hydraulic shifter for the manual transmissions everyone was using. Does this sound familiar? Eventually the system evolved into completely automatic, computer controlled shifting. This, along with traction control, ABS, pit controlled brake balance and roll stiffness (anti-roll bars), and other computer driver aids were eventually banned in Formula 1, but the paddle or button shifting was retained because it enhanced safety by allowing the driver to keep both hands on the steering wheel. The street F1 systems were a direct development of the early Formula 1 E-H shifters.

Fred- Are you confusing straight cut gears with dog clutches? Corvette rock crusher transmissions from the sixties and early seventies had straight cut gears, but were fitted with synchroniser cones. Straight cut gears tend to be much noisier, but tougher, than helical cut gears. A 250 LM and other primarily track Ferraris used dog clutches to shift gears, which required the revs to be matched to prevent graunches on down shifts, but only the slightest hesitation on upshifts. Phil Hill complained about the slowness of the 250 GTO's synchromesh upshifts compared to a prototype's dog clutch upshifts and, since he always double clutched on downshifts with either transmission, downshifts were the same speed with either.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

The good old M22! My first experience rebuilding a gearbox was one of these.

 

Mousecatcher- You are a man of distinction if you rebuilt an M22. Cheers.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Any transmission that shifts automatically is an automatic. There are slushbox trannies with paddle shifts now. The only difference is one has a clutch and the other a torque converter. If you consider paddles to be manual shifting, then both trannies are manuals. Some people call them auto manuals or manual autos. No doubt these are marketing terms to help people believe their cars are not automatics. But automatics they are. Without a mechanical connection to the clutch via a pedal and gears via a stick, the rest are autos different internal mechanicals notwithstanding.

Dave

 

Terry
I have been pulling M/C engines and Car transmissions apart since the 70's.
M/C transmissions that I have pulled have always been with Straight Cut gears, and Dog engagement.
I have always been able to up shift these bikes without the clutch by rolling off the throttle.
Modern race bikes use a sensor in the shift lever to cut the ignition for milliseconds, allowing full throttle up shifts.
(See, I am not adverse to all technology)

Auto transmissions that I have taken apart have all been helical cut gears with syncro rings (or slush boxes)
While it is possible to up shift a car transmission without the clutch, one need to have careful throttle modulation and be able to "feel" the syncros and gears engaging through the shift lever.

 

I learned clutchless shifting on a Mitsu Champ years ago. In addition to being just plain neat its a handy skill to have when needed.

 

David- Learned to do that on an old VW bug when the clutch linkage failed. Rolling push start in neutral, match revs in 2nd gear and then timed, but very positive gear shifts, with pauses in neutral and raised revs on downshifts. Plus avoid stop signs and lights at all costs. Luckily the old beetles were so light, you could push them up to speed by yourself an jump in. Had driven several trucks with crash boxes where you had to double clutch going up and down through the grear box. Good practice.

On late model Corvettes, C5s and C6s, you can perform power shifts with no clutch and save a bit of time. Does not even graunch. Function of a really powerful set of synchro cones.

Fred- Correct, most cars with manual transmissions use helical gears for quietness and late model Ferraris designed for F1 or manual shifters have triple cone synchros in first and second gears and dual cone on the other four. The GM M22 Rockcrusher 4 speed manual transmission Mousecatcher and I were discussing had straight-cut gears, synchro rings, whined like a truck (most trucks back then were also fitted with straight cut gears for strength), and could chew up rocks with no harm. Racing transmissions of the 1950s and 1960s frequently used helical cut gears with simple dog clutch engagement and no synchro rings. The GTO had synchro rings and that was why Phil Hill complained about the slowness of upshifts compared to a non-synchro prototype's transmission. Not sure whether they used the clutch on upshifts or not. Hill's description of a short pause and then straight into the next gear would seem to hint clutchless upshifts were used, and having to use the clutch would have slowed down GTO shifts. Somebody out there has driven one and maybe he or she can tell us.

Hardtop- Afraid I have to disagree with your definition of automatic. Automatic refers to the transmission type, not the shifter type, and usually, but not always, involves a torque converter. There is no difference in transmissions/transaxles between F1 and stick operated Ferraris, only the shifter and clutch throw-out bearing and linkages are different.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

If the car is properly warmed up, you can also use the starter motor to get going in first gear.
(BTDT)

 

Not if the car has a safety switch that disconnects the starter when you put the clutch in.

 

The cars we would put these in were so loud it didn't matter!

 

Mousecatcher- Affirmative. My 67 427 Corvette only had an M21 transmission, but had Hooker headers dumping straight into factory side-pipes. You would not even have heard the M 22 transmission. Could not even hear the radio.

Taz
Terry Phillips