Does anyone have any experience with car design? I am an artist, and have played around with ideas as I am sure many of you have. However, I have been asked by a friend to: 1. come up with a design for a new electric vehicle, 2. sculpt the full size clay body. I will also be doing the interior. Once I have completed sculpting the body, a team will then come in and produce the molds for the body parts. They will also build a custom chassic. It will be a working prototype. The budget for the entire project will be $325K. My question is what should I charge for the original design and carving the body? I may use a CAD program for the design, but the full-size body will be sculpted by hand.
The clay model needs to be done by a professional. There is a lot of interpretative work from the designer's concepts that will have to be done. A really experieced modeler will grasp what the designer was trying to achieve and make that happen. A good designer will recognize that the modeler knows what he is doing and will willingly collaborate with that person. The experienced modeler should also have a good understanding on manufacturability of the body panels. Be careful in having too high of expectations of CAD solving all your issues. You will be working in large surfaces and a lot of transitioning forms. The computer screen may not give a representative enough indication on this; reason for using the full size clay for the real evaluation. Get copies of Car Styling from Kaneko Enterprises in Southern California to see real automotive design development. This is a publication from Japan that is a staple of the automotive professionals. There are a few practicing automotive designers here on F-Chat. That was my training at Art Center but long ago my path went a different way into corporate aircraft interiors. Jeff
clay models are great, but require a LOT of dedication. ive made plenty of them in 1:4 scale (cars) but 90% of the time it takes to do one is symetry and the finer details. i suggest you get a 3d model made (CAD) and get it turned from a 5 axis turning machine. that way you will have a perfect model.
Thanks for the advice guys. As far as the clay model goes, I will be both the designer and the modeller. I have never done a full size car, but I do have experience as a sculptor. Any CAD work will be used to get the initial shape and proportions. I have also heard that even with the technolgy available, most seasoned designers still prefer working with clay.
here are a few pics for you of full scale models. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Clay will let you really evaluate the shapes in full size. There will be the subtleties of if the cross section was too shallow or too full that only at 1:1 will be visible. Should a line or form be raised just slightly or lowered, move the start of the curve acceleration forward or back. With the clay you can take it outside and do a viewing in a real environment. The clay is important. I remember a review on the Chevy HHR where it was stated that the rear fender cross section showed a characteristic flaw of going straight from the computer screen: computer made it seem that there was more crown in the shape than was really apparent in the real world. Jeff
Thanks Jeff. I'll try to posts photos of the progress. It will be a few weeks before we are ready to tackle the full-size model. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hi Dincenzo, Are you saying that you will model the whole car yourself? And you have never worked on one before? This will be a very long process for one person and your ability to create high quality surfaces with no experience will be very difficult. A full size clay is usually done by a team of 3-6 experienced modelers. Just packing the clay on the buck could take you a month. I don't mean to sound too negative, but it is a big project. Also, when working full size, making even small changes can take a long time. This can cause compromises with the design, as you may not want to make changes to your design because of how long it will take. I would highly recommend that you do a very good quality 1/4 scale model to work out the design in 3D. (1/3 scale is better but takes a long time) Doing the scale model will save you time in the long run and also give you some good surfacing experience. If you can find an experienced modeler to help you, you will probably be much happier with the results. Good luck and show us some progress pictures if you can. John
Wow where to begin? I have a great deal of experience in this from my time in school with GM and Chrysler. I don't know how to answer your question briefly here on a forum but in a nutshell you're going to need to get your hands on Alias if you want class A surfacing (which you are) and you are going to need PRECISE schematics in the tube of your chasis and all of the hard points you have to hit. I would suggest finding a Alias studio who you could sub out to and work with. By the time you try to learn the nuances of Alias and clay modeling you'll be a head of the game if you sub it out. You could go the old school route and go from fullsize tapes to clay. You don't need the tube to get a beautiful form if you have the modeling skills. In school we worked round the clock for one semester to deliver one 1/4 concept. that includes all of the ideation, exploration, model work, paint, etc. Tt could be done single handedly but it will take thousands of hours. I've sculpted fullsize clays with a modeler and it's a slow tedious process. You'll need a large space to work for the fullsize buck, plus a boat load of Chavant, an oven to preheat the clay, a myriad of surfacing tools, etc., etc. I would guess working solo 40 hours a week on the fullsize clay would take you anywhere up to 6 months to get it dead on perfect for molds. I'm talking OEM perfect not Gears or West Coast Customs "perfect". That would include starting the armature from scratch and the interior, etc. Don't foget a clay fullsize weighs a ton! The armature alone is a challenge. The designing and sketching are easy compared to translating your sketches into 3d form. Everything of course depends on the complexity of the shape. if this car is going to be very simple than your timeline will be a lot shorter. My rule of thumb is to estimate how long you think it will take and then double that. 9 times out of 10 it takes you just a little more than that! I've always dreamed of making my own concept car like the P4/5 seen here so I've really, really looked into these details. In the end all it takes is money and time. A good read on this subject is a book called "Building the Perfect Beast".
There is an Alias to Catia interface for direct transfer or you can output an iges file from Alias and Catia can read that.
The gentleman laying the tape in this photo is my friend an past instructor Kirk Bennion. He's a great, talented guy. Neat to see that shot! It really brings back a lot of memories. Makes me home sick and want to get out of FL to find a good design studio. The CAD is only really good to get you a rough "almost there" form. I would use it to get the surface within one inch and then apply the clay. Even the greatest 3D packages in the world can't get the surface the way the human eye and hand can. No studio let's a clay get final approval without some type of human final touch. Get ready for some blisters! Applying that hot Chavant clay by hand isn't fun. Also remember that it has a high sulfur count in it which will not only stink but rust many of your metal tools. You are also going to need lots and lots of tape. You can never have too much because you will always be laying down and removing body lines to get them just right. In a pinch you can also cut a black garbage bag so that it is a flat shape, mist your clay with a spray bottle, and then lay the bag over the surface. It will give you a easy indication of "paint" and how the reflections are running. Keep us updated! Image Unavailable, Please Login
I forgot about it being Chavant clay. Chavant has lots of different formulations available on the clay. Some are easier to work but less dimensionally stable than others. No idea if it is still true but in the past Mazda used one of the hardest compounds while the GM version was relatively soft. Car Styling did a book on clay modeling in the past. It may still be available or through Amazon or E-bay. Hot Shoe: Is dinoc still the prefered method for getting the paint appearance? First time I heard of the garbage bag technique. Jeff
They still us Dinoc. The garbage bag trick is something we used in college when we had no money. It works surprisingly well for small areas. On the smaller scale models you can actually spray them with a sandy fill primer and then use automotive finishes.
Just discovered this thread . How is the project coming ? Speaking from a great deal of experience , doing a full size clay by oneself is a monumental task . As Qvb pointed out , it usually takes 3 - 6 experienced clay sculptors to complete a full size clay . If you do indeed create a math file , are your plans to mill it in with a full size milling machine ? Be interested to hear how the project came out . Good luck !
Unfortunately, bureaucracy has stalled the project. Without getting into too much politics, part of our funding is coming from the gov't. But because of the fight over stimulus money, we are now at a stand-still. Our governor is refusing to accept over 700 million dollars in stimulus money. However, our congressman, Jim Clyburn is the Majority Whip, and is quite interested in the project. While the two battle back and forth, we wait. Here are a few of my design sketches of the vehicle. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I am a practising automotive design engineer---$325k for what you are taking about doing will hardly pay for the coffee and donut bills-if you plan to do a proper job of it. Just the tooling for the car will be more than that. If you are not experienced in this business it is really easy to mess up and underestimate everything! Also--concept sketches are not too bad-but maybe a little too Audi TT coupe like?
I hate to say it, but you are a very long ways away from doing things in three dimensions... The costs associated with even doing a 1/5 scale clay "right" are quite high. I have a friend who did a full scale clay by himself for over 2/3 of it, and had one helper for the remaining 1/3... all by hand.
not to hijack this thread and Whilst we are on this topic...Perhaps I may try again for feedback...I too am a designer and artist and car enthusiast. I believe I have an invention for a mode of automotive transportation that will revolutioize the world. I kid you not, It is based on perpetual motion.. The mechanicals will dictate the shape of the car, I have detailed descriptions,sketches and elaoborate mechanical drawings. In past, my experience has been to patent an invention. I do not trust the system, since my previous patents in unrelated fields were violated immediatly and there was little I could do.. At this point I feel the only way to proceed is to see Barak Obama himself and ask him to review it.. I seek a qualified partner in proceeding with this technology, with the right connections.. Only problem is , Once I divulge my secret, I might have to shoot you!! What to Do...?
There is a few threads here on FChat about car design. This is one from an excellent auto designer, Michiel Mobiel, I will suggest the best herre on FChat. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122770&highlight=GTO+concept http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106468&highlight=GTO+concept
Not sure how good or bad Micheil is (never met him.) but there are some seriously good, professional designers (car stylists-though they hate that term!) on F-chat. including the guys who designed the Ford GT, the Volkswagon Beetle (New), Audi TT Coupe, Ruf CTR3, Porsche 959, etc. Tough company to compete with!
