Shiftershaft seals 328

After many happy years my shiftershaftseals broke down. Oil on the garagefloor.
I read your many advices and dismanteled the shiftershaft. Thanks for the advices!!!
No problem so far.
The middle sealingring hardened out causing engineoil to leak into the gearchamber.
The outher one was in pretty good shape end still flexible, but leaking! Good contact for both sealingrings on the shaft.

I also took the thrustplates away which hold the sealingrings in place. I disovered these thrustplates don't touch the sealingrings at all but are resting against the aluminium housing. There is play between the sealingring and the thrustplate. You can move the sealingring behind the thrustplate. So I think: there can oil pass around the sealingring! Keeping in mind that the back and forward movement of the shaft will certainly loosen them.

Anyone know what's the correct installprocedure and how the sealingrings block the oil?

 

Very interested by the post and the answers, as I have same problem on my GTB, and should start the job soon.
Interested by any picture and advice !

 

I used oem seals and just squeezed them into place.
Been oil tight for 3 years now.

 

Change all of them?

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=2407
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Item 5, Quantity of 2 (115372) are the only seals that need to be changed to repair the shifter shaft leak. On the 328, these are "cup style" seals and are best not replaced with the aftermarket "quad-type" seals.

David

 

Agreed.............I tried the quad seals and they are not the correct size. Save yourself a lot of effort and frustration and use OEM seals.

 

Thougt it over and came to the folowing conclusion:

These seals have the same working principe like normal seals (spring inside).
The inner lip contacts the shiftershaftsurface (no spring added because the shaft needs to shift relatively easy). The sumppressure forces the inner lip down, tighten the seal.
That's why the seal and thrustplate are not in contact with eachother. So the sumppressure can reach the inner seal-lip and force it down.

The seal on the outside off the motor (where the shaft enters the sump)has a longer lifespan because it is not completely immersed in oil and doesn't harden.
But the sumppressure cannot reach this seal easy because its on the outside. So the force-down is relatively low. When the engine stops this situation gets worse because the sumppressure fails. Only a fresh seal can do te job.
When old and worn these seals tend to shrink so oil an pass around.
Keep in mind that the seal on the outside of the motor is in opposit position. The seals are put in place with the inner lips facing towards eachother.
That means the outside seal has no aluminium backside like his sister on the inside but has only the metal thrustplate to lean to. No optimal situation.

 

so, what is your conclusion : do you think OEM or quad are better ?
the cost of the seals are 0 compared to the time to do the job. I would really be sure to install the best for the car. As I have only in hand the quadring, I cannot check if they are the same size of OEM one.
Thanks for advice !

 

x2. I tried the quad seals on my 328 and it was impossible to get the shaft back in even I expanded the seals before fitting them in. The ID of the seals were at leat 1mm too small, even if I could them force the shaft in by hammering the shaft, I could see a big drag when shifting. So I removed those Quad seals and bought new Ferrari seals and the shafts slided in with no problem. The quad seal only cost 14 bucks a pair compared to 50 something bucks for the Ferrari seals, so you can go ahead and give it a try.

I am no expert just a personal experience.

 

Thanks for the response guys! Appreciate!

Today I received the original seals from the Ferrari dealer. They are very soft and flexible, needed for easy shift. They are little wider because they are fresh material. So I think these new ones will squeeze in nice and will stay in place.
The outher lip is very flexible also and will be pushed against the aluminium housing by shape and sumppressure also. Thats why these type of oilseal need no metal inside.
After some years they will evenso harden en shrink, letting oil pass around them.
I consider this part a "routine" maintenance object.

When you lose engineoil through the inner seal into the gearcase it will seem like your car is burning oil, but only the gearcase will overfill. What happens to it when it overfills? I don't know.
On the road I smelled burned oil now en then. Maybe the gearcase will overflow somewhere on the exhaust.
Maybe it is for us 328 owners a good thing to bleed the gears via the levelplug once in a while to check the condition of the oilseal between enginesump and gearsump.

My car is lifted on four little (ca. 40 cm high) axlestands. The engine stays in place. It does the job.
Will inform you how this repair continues.

 

Thanks for the info and update. If you can, please take some pictures. I'm sure that a few of us will attempt this repair in the future.

 

That would be very much appreciated. I plan to replace those seals in a couple of weeks !

 

Forgot to thank Wade for his picture, it is a great help. Thanks Wade!!
Steps to be taken to dismantle:

Disconnect battery, drain oil from both sumps, unscrew upper little bolt dipsticktube (near aircon), under car: unscrew (1) bottom attachment dipsticktube, remove dipsticktube, remove plastic airtube to altenator for better acces, unscrew (2) base-attachment dipsticktube (direct on enginefloor below 1) I used a shortened wrench.
Remove it (its a short guidetube into sump which blocks the sump from coming down*), remove oiltemperaturesender on bottom sump*, disconnect gearselector-shaft (one bolt nr32 direct before enginesump), unscrew all the little bolts with hold the enginesumpbottom, sump will come down after prising the gasket and pull it carefully because off the oilpumppickup (it can stick al little but it will release by tilting), unscrew all the little bolts with hold the transmissionsump, be carefull: on the clutchside there are three springs, three balls and a spacer coming down as well, remember their position.
You see the shiftershaft going to the trans. Disconnect the shiftershaft at its very end (one bolt), slide the shiftershaft out by pushing the gearselectorshaft aside (it will just pass and needs some patience).
You can see both thrustplates and behind them the shiftershaftseals now and try to leave the metal thrustplates in place. Go behind with a pick and and try to pull the seals out (which I didn't but its recommended to let the metal plates sit)

Now this is the situation at the moment. Will inform you in my adventure in putting it all together again. So many work to little time..

 

As many of you know, I'm the supplier of the 115372-Q 'aftermarket "quad-type" seals'.

First let me say that I apologise for not recognising that it could sometimes be quite difficult to insert the shift shaft into a quad seal. Once I started using pre-compression, I did not encounter undue difficulty in installing Quad seals in several cars. Nor have my 308 & Mondial customers reported undue shaft insertion difficulties such as described in this thread. It appears that 328s may be particularly susceptable to shaft insertion difficulty.

However, the insertion difficulty is NOT due to the seal being the wrong size. The first part of this post will summarize the detailed design analysis I performed when I selected the Quad seal's material & dimensions. It will show that the quad seal is a correctly sized superior seal that meets design guidelines when used for this specific application.

Then I will explain what the real problem is that sometimes causes shift shaft insertion difficulty and what can be done to mitigate the problem.

SHIFT SHAFT SEAL DESIGN REQUIREMENTS:

The 328's 109767 shift shaft's OD is precision ground to 20mm.

NOTE: The 109767 shift shaft is NOT unique to the 328, it was also used on every transverse engine Ferrari starting with the 246 dino, the 3x8 series from the GT4 thru the QVs, and the Mondial 8 & QV.

The seal mounting groove is 28mm ID by approximately 6mm wide (the width varies somewhat due to mechanical swaging of the so-called thrust ring).

115372 SEAL SPECIFICATIONS:

The 115372 cup seal is marked "20 28 5.5" on the flat side, specifying it's dimensions:
ID: 20mm
OD: 28mm
Width: 5.5mm

ie: The 115372 seal is designed to fit in a 28mm OD groove opening that is at least 5.5 mm wide, and seal onto a 20mm OD shaft. These dimensions are obviously consistent with the design requirements above.

The 115372 seal material is Nitrile (also called Buna-N) rubber with a hardness of Shore A70, and an operating temperature range of -20° to +212° F.

All of the other 3x8 oil seals (Crankshaft, differential, & cam seals) are of Viton which has a much higher max operating temperature. The high end of the Nitrile temperature range has very little margin above normal crankcase operating temperatures, this most likely accounts for the shift shaft seal's relatively short life.

NOTE: The 115372 shift shaft seal is also not unique to the 328, it was introduced in 1982 late in the 2V injected car run, and was used on 308s & Mondials thru the 328.

QUAD SEAL DESIGN:

SPECIFICATIONS:
The 115372-Q QUAD seal's dimensions are:
ID: 19.99mm +/- 0.25mm
Width & Height (W): 5.33mm +/- 0.13mm

Material: Viton
Operating temperature range: 0° to +400° F
Hardness: Shore A75 Thus, The quad seal is not significantly harder than 115372 seal.

QUAD SEAL ADVANTAGES:

- Superior material: The Quad Seal is made of Viton which has much higher chemical resistance than Nitrile. Also, Viton's operating temperature range is 0° to +400° F compared to Nitrile's -20° to +212° F range.

- 4 sealing lobes with sealing pressure constantly present from seal body's compression. The cup seal which has a single sealing edge that depends on spring action of the cup's V side and/or pressure against the V side to provide postiive sealing pressure.

- The trough between the lobes forms a lubricant reservoir that ensures the seal never operates 'dry', thus reducing both shift shaft drag & seal wear.

- The Quad Seal's sealing action is self actuating in response to radial and/or axial pressure in all directions. A cup seal provides almost no sealing action in response to pressure against it's flat side.

- The Quad Seal's mold parting line is in the trough between the lobes, well away from the critical sealing lips. A cup seal's sealing lip is a mold parting line.

Given the infrequent and slow shaft speeds involved in manual shifting, the shift shaft seal is considered a 'static' seal application.

The 115372-Q seal's ID (d1) is 19.99mm +/- 0.25mm.

The ID is extremely close to the shaft's OD. The ID tolerence is the normal manufacturing tolerence for precision ring type seals. THE SEAL IS NOT UNDERSIZED FOR THE SHAFT

The 115372-Q seal's width & height (W) are 5.33mm +/- 0.15mm.

The nominal compression is:

Compression % = 100 x ( W - (groove ID- shaft OD)/2)/W)

24.95% = 100 x (5.33 - (28-20)/2)/5.33)

The 115372-Q seal's compression meets the design quidelines[/q]

WHY SHAFT INSERTION CAN SOMETIMES BE DIFFICULT:

Once the seal is inserted into the groove, it is compressed radially inwards until the shaft is inserted. Thus the shift shaft must provide the full amount of seal compression as it is being inserted. This need for compression during insertion is what has led people to mistakenly believe that the seal is undersized.

Ideally the shift shaft's end would taper down to an OD that is small enough to fit inside the seal and then compress the seal as it is being inserted.

Shift shaft insertion becomes very difficult when there is not enough taper to enter the inserted Quad seal & compress it. This is because when the shaft has insufficient taper, the shaft's end will try pull the seal's entry lobe along with it as it is being inserted, thus distorting the seal instead of compressing it(Figure 9). In the case of insufficient taper shown in figure 9, if the shaft is hammered or otherwise forced further into the seal, eventually one of 3 things will occurr:

- Good case: The entry lobe will pop over the shaft's end & compress into place.

- Bad case #1: The entry lobe will turn under the rest of the seal and compress, sealing but producing excessive drag on the shaft.

- Bad case #2: The lobe will tear or the seal will be cut by being crushed against the groove's other side.

The 328's 109767 shift shaft is not unique, it was also used on every transverse engine Ferrari's transmission starting with the 246 dino, including the 308 series from the GT4 thru the QVs, and the Mondial8 & MondialQV. Unfortunately, The amount of shift shaft end taper seems to vary widely.

There have been almost no complaints about Quad seal shift shaft insertion difficulties from 308 & Mondial owners. Once I started using pre-compression I stopped having insertion problems, the same goes for my 308 customers. From this I conclude that the shift shafts used on the 308s & earlier cars had a reasonable if not ideal amount of end taper.

However, based on 328 owner reports like the quotes at this post's beginning, it seems that some of the 328 shafts were made with very little end taper.

MITIGATING THE EFFECTS OF INSUFFICIENT END TAPER:
There are two things that can be done to avoid the figure 9 scenario:

1. Best solution: Add more taper to the shaft's end as shown in Figure 8. Ideally the shaft would have taper length Z of about 3mm to 3.5mm. Adding taper would have no adverse effect on the shift shaft.

Tapering the end can easily be done with a lathe once the shaft has been removed.
Adding taper can also be done by careful hand filing or grinding. I reccommend wrapping the shaft first with masking tape to protect against a file or other tool accidently damaging it.

2. Alternative solution: Pre-compress the ring prior to inserting the shaft: The purpose of pre-compressing the seal is to squeeze the entry lobe enough so that the end of the shaft will fit inside of, and further compress, the entry lobe instead of dragging the lobe with it.

I'm trying to come up with a way to make a low cost pre-compression tool that will ensure that the Quad seal is fully compressed, thus facilitating insertion of shift shafts with minimal end taper.

 

Hi Mantinger,

It seems we'll do the same job nearly at the same time : I plan to do the job this week-end, with help of a good mechanic (but without Ferrari experience).
I will try Quad seals. Will keep you informed.
By the way, could you send some pictures of the elements to remove that you describe in your message ? I don't really understand why dipstick should be removed.

Thanks for sharing,

 

Yes, <19mm is below what I intended, don't start until I can think some more about this.

I'll measure my inventory, I didn't measure them when they came in, trusted my supplier.

It's possible that I've received the next smaller standard size quad seals. The next size down is 18.4mm ID, thus the uncompressed OD would be 18.4 + 2 x 5.3 = 29.08 mm. Hmmmm, That's an interesting pair of sizes!

The uncompressed OD is still greater than the mounting hole size, so if you could work the shaft thru the ID you would actually end up with seal's width compressed the same amount!

Instead of compressing the OD by 2.68mm, you'd be getting it by compressing the ID by 19mm-18.4mm = 1.6mm, and compressing the OD by 29.08mm - 28 mm = 1.08 mm. !! The total compression would still be the same, and would still have to be done by both the shaft's OD and the mounting grove's ID. I can't see how the seal would leak or be unduly stressed.

The seal's cross-section behaves like a very viscous fluid in transferring exerted pressure. Identical total compression amounts should imply the same forces being exerted on both the groove & the shaft. Thus the drag on the shaft should be the same.

In other words, I based on this admittedly very quick analysis both quad seal sizes are within the design guidelines for a 20 mm OD shaft and a 28mm ID mounting groove!!!


I need to think about this a lot more, and for sure measure my current inventory to see what size quad rings I've actually received.

There's a tubular extension (#16 in the picture) of the dipstick tube internal to the sump! The extension tube goes down between the sump cover's windage shields and the sump housing. Thus you can't remove the sump cover until the tube is removed.

The extension tube has a funnel top that's inside the fitting the dipstick nut screws onto. The external dipstick tube's spherical tip is compressed against the extension tube by the external tube's nut & the fitting it's threaded onto. Essentially the same setup as a plumbing pipe union.

Once the dipstick nut is removed[1], the extension tube can usually be easily removed by just sticking your finger into the funnel end & lifting it out. If it's stuck, a 10" or so length of coat hanger with a very small hook bent on the end can be stuck down thru the tube & used to pull it out.

[1] We won't discuss how easy this part is... ;^)
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Hi Mantinger,

We are just at the same level as you at the moment ... Will keep you post.
I took pics that I will send after.

 

Today I managed to put the shiftershaft back in place. Here's the my story:
To get it out, no great problem, its slides out in a angle with little encouragement because of the gearselectorshaft under the car was blocking the straight line out.
Getting it in on an angle: no way!! It doen't want to line up with the engineblock.
At first I tried to pull the selectorshaft out of the way using tiewraps. Not sufficient. Second: remove the fork from the selectorshaft: no effect. Still blocking on the way in. Wrong angle.
Ok.....@%^&%!!

Putting the new oilseals in is very easy. They pop right in place with grease, facing eachother.
Putting the thrustplates back is a easy job also. I hammered them carefully in place using a wrenchsocket. After that I deformed the metal around on three spots with a little hammer to prevent the thrustplates to fall out of their casing. Filled the seals with grease.

Now what to do? Can't get the shaft in. Don't want to hammer it in place because of the risk deforming the shaft, seals and enginebore.
I did read the story of a member who removed the gearselectorhaft out of the way by pulling it into the passengerbay and that is what I did.
To do so you have to remove the centerconsole. It is secured by four little screws to the floor. To get acces you must remove or shift the seats out of the way. Just four bolts between the rails holding them down.
After that you can easy reach the little centerconsolescrews.
You also have to remove the leathercovered extension with connects the centerconsole to the footbay.
Remove the gearselectorknob on top and remove the polished selectorplate.
Well by now you have the coffeebrake and take your medicine to ease down and reconsider the selling of your car...

Now you have to prise out one of the square heaterunits (600 $ each!!) to get acces under the console. Prise out the four switches (antenna, parkinglight, spare, foglights) and disconnect them. Under these switches you see two little screws who hold the console further down.
Remove.
In this stage it is possible to prise out the complete surface with hold the controls. The centerconsole still sitting on the floor.
Disconnect the big electrical connectors near the pedals.
Disconnect only the aircondition switch (remove the turningknob with very little wrench going into the side of the turningknob) Below that remove the nut holding the switch. Necessary because it stays in the car (thermostattube).
Take the switch away and save the thermostattube.
Now you can take the controlesurface away by lifting the centreconsole and store it elsewhere.
Lift also the centreconsole and pull it away.

Disconnect the leads from the reverselights. Remove the bolt holding the gearselectorshaft.
Remove the complete selectorhousing (four bolts).
Yes! Now you can pull the gearselectorshaft inside.

Under the car you now can easy slide the shiftershaft into the engineblock by hand in a straight line with minimum force because the angel is right!! No violence, no damage. Just rotate and grease the shiftershaft on the way in. Don't forget to put the dustcover back on the shiftershaft first.

Next week I'm going to clean the passengerbay because there's many stuff and dirt under the console:
about 30 cigarettes, ashes, leafs, italian coin, Ferraristicker and under the seat a square 30 cm plastic plate with has "Auto Milano" on it.
Further on I'm also going to use contactspray on al connectors and hope the heating and ventilationunit on driverside will function again..

Let you know what happens next.

 

Here is my story :
We had same problem to dissassemble the shaft. Impossible without deconnecting more.
So, we disassembled in the passenger compartiments:
- 2 seats, to get access to the console
- Central console ( 4 screws as you mentionned).
With this central console removed, we had access to the gear link. I don't understand why you entered more detailed disassembling in the console ?
When this was done, removing of the the shaft was very easy.
On the shaft, we increased the taper to make the shaft insertion in the seals easier.

In the gearbox, we removed the old seals, but not the metallic plates, which were crimped.
Easy removing of seals with a hook or screwer. Seals we found were not oring, but a kind of sealring (kind, because no lip, no spring, but strange shape). In all case, poor efficiency of these seals.
We install the Quadring seals easily.

To put back the shaft in the gearbox seals was quite hard, due to high compression of quadrings, but with oil, good taper on shaft, and a some force, all worked fine.

I changed a silent block (even if not so worn) by a Delrin silent bloc from Verell. Easy removing, easy installation.

What to say more ?
Reinstallation of everything, deep cleaning of the housings, refill gearbox and engine, ...

Short test drive to come back home :
- Gear selection is far harder than before. Normal due to higher friction of seals compared to OEM seals.
But it remains in an acceptable level. I don't expect any leakages from these 2 seals now ...!
Time to do this job (2 persons, with help of Ferrarichat and Ferrari schemes & good tools) took us a complete day.
- Vibration level in the lever is a little bit increased due to new bush.

Here are some pics,


Best regards,
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Thanks for the pictures! I see, these quadrings are much wider and will certainly block the oil inside. The original ones I use have much lesser drag on the shaft but will they last for long? Time will learn. When I shifted the shaft by hand there was no difference compaired to the old situation.
At first I will put the enginesump back in place and refill it. Then look for oilleaks inside the gears and outside the engineblock. Wait for a day or so and look again.

The metal plate with holds the oilseal on the outside is the only security for keeping the seal in.
Mine had become loose. Frightening what happens when it falls out! Not a secure solution against oilspillage.

Did you had to re-adjust the gearlinkage? Did the gears pop right in afterwards?

 

Yes, we re-adjust everything. We put a mark on each part before disassembling. But it is necessary to be 2 peoples to do the job. One in the car to pass the gears, the other to check under the car. The gears pop right after the job. We did this of course with gearbox open.

Here are pics of the gearbox
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4 th and 5 th gear
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re: shaft removal/insertion:
If it comes out with little trouble, it should go back the same way. I'm wondering if your engine wasn't quite square with the frame. The one time I couldn't get the shift shaft's end past the fork to remove it I loosened the 4 motor mount bolts & used a pry bar to move the engine slightly, maybe 2 or 3 mm which was just enough to let the shaft slide past the fork.

I have never disconnected the linkage inside the console when removing/installing the shift shaft. I find that if I put the transmission into neutral when I start, I can move the linkage around so that the shift shaft will slide out alongside the shaft that goes forward into the console. It takes some wiggling around to get the shaft's front end past the bushing thru-bolt fork, however, once the end is past the fork there's clearance to get the shaft out.

Reinserting the shaft is the same, the trick is to get the fork's end properly aligned with the shaft's side. Until you get the the fork & shaft aligned the shaft won't go into the engine as you describe. IIRC, you want the fork all the way in one direction ie: either the fork is all the way back towards the engine (ie: the gearshift in one of the forward gate slots), or all the way forward away from the engine (can't remember which one it is tho). If the fork isn't in just the right position, you're right, the angle makes it impossible to insert the shift shaft. Once spent over an hour fighting with the shaft before I remembered to change the fork's position. IIRC, what you need to avoid is to having the shaft's end trying to get past the fork while you're trying to get the shaft started into the engine. When getting that alignment, it helps to have someone inside wiggling the gearshift, but it all can be done from underneath.

re: realignment:
The shift control fork you have to remove from the shift shaft's tranny end actually has a fair range of adjustability. If you can avoid disconnecting the linkage under the console, and also avoid loosening/changing the turnbuckle like hex shift adjuster just in front of the connection to the shift shaft, any miss-alignment comes from the fork being out of it's original position. So you usually don't have to do a full shift adjustment. With the gearshift in neutral, you just align the control fork with the center L shaped control link by eye when you're tightening the control fork down on the shift shaft.

I've got one of Kermit's shift alignment tools that slides down the gearshift against the shift gate & centers it on neutral which ensures that the gearshift is centered both front to back & side to side while I'm aligning the control fork to the center L control link. It can be done without the tool, either with someone holding the gearshift in neutral, or by putting the tranny into 2nd gear and pushing the gearshift into the gate's 2nd gear slot.

 

Denis, thank you very much for posting the photos!!
This weekend I'll continue end hopefully finish the job. Appreciate your help and certainly will check the gears using the photo's.

Verell, also thanks for your input it is a great help to me and many others who try to maintain their cars (especially on this subject) and bild up knowledge about the way their cars are build and to be looked after.
Will inform you how this job further continues.