Would you buy a 328 without any records?

I'm still shopping, looking for a decent to very nice 308 or 328 (I haven't given up altogether on the Holt's 308, though). There is a 328 on ebay now, here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1988-Ferrari-328-GTS_W0QQitemZ270365145757QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item270365145757&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

I called the guy. He seems like a good guy, but he has absolutely no records on the car. The only maintenance has been 1 oil change in 5 or 6 years (and 5 or 6 thousand miles)! It mystifies me how any owner of a Ferrari could a) lose the records, or b) not pass them along to the next owner. He reportedly bought the car from Foreign Cars Italia in North Carolina who promised to look for the records a few years ago.

The seller seems honest enough to me, but is no records a deal killer for a realistic Ferrari buyer?

Thanks, Jeff

 

Keep looking. Where the starting price is on the auction you should be able to find one with records. Also at the very least this car needs a major service with timing belts if it has only had one oil change in 5 - 6 years.

 

I bought my 1988 328gts without any records back in 2001. A learning experience. Over the course of 5 yrs. I spent around $14K to get the car to where it needed to be then sold it to purchase my current F355. I have no regrets about it as I wanted to bring the car up to 'no-issue' status.
I wouldn't say that you absolutley need records, although they are nice, but what you do need is to pay a qualified and experienced Ferrari mechanic to go with you to inspect the car for a few hours. This to me is far better and more reliable than records themself.
-Billy

 

Short answer is no, it's a buyers market. You'll probably find one in as good a shape with records. PPI is a must if you want this car and price accordingly that will make you comfortable with spending $$$ on the service items you're going to want done.

How long has he owned the car and ask why doesn't he at least have the service records performed during his ownership?

Bottomline is, if there are no service records than it wasn't done unless he can prove it to you otherwise.

Good luck with your search.

 

The best I can remember the details, he bought this 328 on an "impulse" 4 or 5 years ago from Foreign Cars Italia, that he has put 5000 miles or so on the car, and the only service has been one oil change. He said he went back to Foreign Cars Italia a couple years ago to ask for the records since he decided they'd be nice to have. They said they'd look for them, but he never heard back.

After reading some of the timing belt threads, it makes me ask if I should even attempt to test drive the car?

Thanks, Jeff

 

Its due or overdue the dreaded belts. So I wouldn't bother unless you think you can get it for a price that allows a major service in your first week.

There's better cars out there for that sort of money.

 

its not a bad thing to buy without records BUT if you do, a PPI is a MUST!...honestly this deal sounds fishy...owned for multiple years 1 oil change and no records...old records dont matter much but at least there should be something during his ownership so that makes the price is not good enough to take the chance

 

It's all about price and a PPI if you're not up to doing a throrough inspection yourself.

Personally, while I would sell a Ferrari on eBay, I wouldn't buy one, since there's no ability to negotiate.

My 328 just had a simple text list of some of the maitenance done in the previous five years, but nothing before. (Guy did his own work.) I took the guy at his word and figured the higher miles were an indication that it was a great driver.

And that is exactly what mine is. The only issue I've had in three years and a couple thousand miles is an air bubble in the thermostat housing. (I actually wound up breaking the housing checking the thermostat, but got one from GT Car Parts for $30 or so.) That being said -- I did belts, tensioners and a water pump just because it was due. I also got a hell of a deal (under $30K)

 

Jeff,

The fact that it lacks records is only a partial problem. This car definitely needs a full major belt change and water pump replacement anyway. [Getting the major done can be considered a good thing; you define the thoroughness, quality and start the clock at zero for your ownership] What the records would give an indication on is if there have been other recurring issues over time. A major PPI would be in order but realize that is on your $ so unless you are close enough to a possible deal it does not make sense to move forward with one. Lacking the current owner's maintenance activities for the last some years any PPI needs to look at everything because there is no clue what has and has not been properly addressed over the last 20 years.

Test drive the car, if the belt breaks they are on his watch.

In all likelihood you can do a better deal on something else. 25,000 miles is OK but not spectacular if you want an ultra low mileage concours special. If you calculate $10,000 for the major and other issues (hoses, plug wires, etc.) then it becomes a $50,000 decision. The fear is what if its another 3, 4 or 5K to start getting it to where it should have been to begin with.

You might try talking with Foreign Cars Italia yourself or seek out some from the regional forum that has strong connections with them.

Jeff

 

Mine had very few records and the seller had owned it for 5 years. He had some minor work done
here and there but it needed a major service for sure. I didn't mind having all the work done on my watch.

I had a PPI done and had someone look over and drive the car that really knows 328s (Thank you again,
Augustine!!!) It got the thumbs up on both counts so I bought it, had the major done, and I have had
no problems since. What good does a stack of paper do me now? Everything on the car has been gone
through and is up to snuff--I don't care if the belts were changed in 1995, etc. The car has had 3 or 4
owners, and I'm sure between them and the dealers the various paperwork got lost along the way.

You need to decide if you can trust the seller or not. Records or not, you need to spend some serious
time with the car (and owner) and if it passes the smell test, then get a PPI. Then, drive and enjoy!

EDIT: This is post... 328!

 

Jeff, my advice to you is get a thorough ppi from a recommended Ferrari mechanic . Test drive the car and make sure it feels tight and lastly do a full and complete major on the car right away and I mean RIGHT AWAY! you must assume that you are starting from square 1 with the car so spend the money upfront and drive worry free

BOTTOM LINE: Don't let no records scare you away and that goes for higher mileage Ferrari's too

Good Luck in your hunt !

 

at the right price, I would buy any car without records. My old GT4 had an invoice for carb rebuilt and I still had to do it again as the float valves were not changed so it would flood the engine causing unburnt fuel in the exhaust which then burns and makes it glow red. Real cool at night, but not safe.

 

My 330 2+2 had almost no records for the previous 20 years to my purchase; a PPI by highly-reputable shop showed a basically sound car, which proved out in the long run, but I spent $$$ fixing leaks and deteriorated rubber items that showed up later.

Problem with older car/disuse/no records is that lots of seals and gaskets shrink and deform, hoses rot, bushings and mounts deform, etc.

Some stuff is more dependent on use, others are simply result of time, atmospheric conditions, temperature changes, and gravity.

The 308 came with full, down to the last mile service records, but I still spend a grand or so replacing deeply-buried stuff that came to light when it was pretty well taken apart for the major I had done on arrival.

 

What great advice from this group, not only this reply, but the others. It sure helps to have this objective input, particularly on something as emotional as a Ferrari purchase.

The bottom line is that this particular 328 has essentially no maintenance for at least five years, now has 25,000 miles, no records of any prior work. My instinct on this car is to "Run, Forrest, Run" because of the lack of history. However, it is geographically pretty close to me, I would be able to arrange a PPI, the seller is a real person I can talk to and seems reasonable, and the photos seem to support the mileage.

I assume I could burn through $10K in catching up the service work, assuming no bad surprises? Does that make sense compared with your experience?


Thanks again, Jeff

 

$10K will get you an ultra-thorough major and a lot of other stuff fixed, it would be nice to have another $5K in reserve.

I bought a 2-owner, 20K mile 308 with up to date records and A+ PPI, have still spent close to $8K on a major and sorting out, $4K on the Tubi and odd-ends of accessories (these little bits aren't cheap, with exception of my $39.95 billet aluminum ebay gearshift knob...a true deal).

It's a nice day here...off for a drive!

 

The car you are interested in looks nice.

I would try to get the one at Motor Cars International.


Good luck!

 

Not at that price, he is dreaming if he thinks he can even get one bid, I wouldn't waste my time, it's a buyer's market, you can pick your car at this moment.

 

"Would you buy a 328 without any records?"

Sure, there's no way to play them in a 328 anyway; there's no room to install a turntable and even if there was they don't do well with all the bouncing around!

 

my 328 came with NO records other than a recent battery-bill.

my 308 cam with very minor records from the last 6 years.


I do think paper is overrated and show only the maintenace records. When you perform a major service after purchase the car is like it should be anyway. And HOW the car is treated will not be shown in the records.


Lots of buyers are afraid of cars without records and wondering why any user would sell/buy a car without the according records.
My personal two cents on this:

I do not think the vast majority of the cars are bad maintained At least in Europe), I do think that some owners simply do not leave a trace of their money spent...

My 328 was sold by a guy that sold it for a friend.... But, the car looked absolutely new,had only 23000 km on the odometer and really looked like a time capsuled one for a very long time.
the reason why someone does not drive his car for a long time can be guessed. But in some cases the answer can be pretty out of the box.

the car's history in these cases is not half as misterious as the history of the previous owner...



Just to be save a performed a major/engine out this winter. Partly just for fun. I have not had any misfortune with it since purchase.

The 308 had 36000km in the odo, looked good on the pictures) and came with only minor records of the last 5000 km (in 7 years)
Again i did a major and drove it for 3500 km the last half year.
No major problems. Only issue: some hot startproblem.

Although Ferrari are the finest available, their maintenance is basically not different than any other cars.

 

If the car were in top shape, great interior, paint, etc. and had recent servicing done, belt changes, etc.
I would think the car would be worth at least $42-$45K. 25,000 miles is a very reasonable amount.

I would imagine that with "ultra-thorough major" service (new gas lines, water pump, etc.) you're probably looking
at $10K. I agree with the 'keep another $5K" in reserve. If the car checks out I would offer $32-35K.

At least:

(a) If you buy the car, you won't have to ship it--which you should w/unknown maintenance history--
which will save you $1-2K if you end up buying a car from either coast;
(b) You can pick and choose your own mechanic and have all the work done on your watch.

If the car is close enough, go see it! What do you have to lose?

The weather is great here, time for a drive!!!

Dave

 

Good advice. While the fact that there are no records would not in it self be a deal breaker, It would raise a red flag as to the amount of attention the car has received from the present owner, and as such would make a thorough PPI that much more important. Depending on what the PPI finds you can then drop you offering price accordingly, but there will always be the nagging question in the back of your mind as to what else might go wrong. Not everything can/will be revealed in a 4 hour PPI. If the oil has only been changed once in the last 4 or 5 years, how has the dirty oil effected the wear on the internal parts of the engine, will you need to replace bearings in the next 5 years?? The list goes on. I myself would not buy one of these cars without some sort of records, at least have something for the last couple of years.

 

I wouldn't freak just because it doesn't have any maintenance records but you should be able to get it for $35K or less and plan on a belt service right away. I've bought ferraris and porsches and alfas before without any records and for the most part haven't been disappointed. If you're mechanically inclined and have some experience with ferraris then you may not need to get a "ferrari mechanic" to go check it out with you or take it to a ferrari shop for a PPI.

Personally, I'm pretty able to evaluate a ferrari quickly on my own - 90% of what you need to know can be observed with attentive eyes and ears. Start with the basics - inspect the body and look for poor panel fit, dents, rust, bubbles, paintwork finish, etc. Most accident damage, rust repair, dents, can be observed with the naked eye if you pay attention to the details. Ask the owner to not start the car prior to your arrival - start it from cold (put your hand on the cylinder head to check) and observe if the engine seems to start well, if there's black or blue smoke from the exhaust, and check the oil pressure at idle and at 3,000-4,000 rpm when the engine is warm. Poke your head under the chassis and look for fluid leaks, take a look at the brake discs - are they grooved? Is there some pad left? Drive the car - does it pull to one side, are there strange wear patterns on the tires, does it brake straight or pull?

Some common sense and some basic mechancal awareness combined with an observant set of eyes and ears will get you most of what you need to know to make an informed purchase decision. And, even if there are records, don't expect a perfect car - some of the worst cars I've seen have piles of records going back to day 1.

 

While I think the records would be comforting and have an effect on the value of the car, I would think the primary focus should be on the current condition of the car. With the appropriate discount for not having records and with a successful prepurchase inspection, it might indeed be worthy of further consideration.

 

i agree with cliff on this subject.
my search began at marshall goldman's who spent quite a bit of time explaining the ins-outs of 328's and ferraris in general.
i did not buy at goldman's however.
i bought gabriella ( '87 328) without records other than a carmix rag sheet. that worthless report showed no wrecks, 3 title
changes, a couple of cali smog tests and that's it!
i purchased her in august and she had a 30k major performed by the selling dealer in may. so i knew she was basically sound.

i found several items not to my liking and they were all resolved prior to delivery. i examined her thoroughly with the chief
mechanic who also spent a good deal of time driving her with me. he was very candid about her and i felt confident that
she was a "sorted" car. all in all, i drove her on 3 seperate occasions and the only fault i could find was a slight harshness
to the ride. the mechanic explained that the bushings were nearing their end and they would need changing in the next
year or so. he ordered an alignment at an independent shop which confirmed his suspicions but no inherent suspenion
damage.

i knew i was taking a chance since i could not confirm her true pedigree. but thru careful observation, extensive under-car
scrutiny, and "listening" to the mechanic, my gut said she was/is a keeper!
2 years and 5000 miles later i still feel the same. i have been piling on documentation all along. at least from purchase date forward
she now how a history, but then so do all my cars.

interestingly, her stablemate was an '83 euro 308. records were astonishing! at least 4" thick in a leatherbound binder.
she had all tools, jack, manuals,etc.

and not 1 body panel was the same shade of red!!!

 

Records are nice to have but as many have already said, its about condition and price. If an owner doesn't have records he's now on the defensive to convince you of condition. Any service that hasn't been done should be presumed due and the cost of that service deducted from your offer. If you can't determine condition by yourself, hire a reputable and disassociated mechanic to do a PPI.