Would you buy a 328 without any records?

I have more experience with surveys on boats than with PPIs on cars but just as with a boat engine survey, don't expect any magic. I have seen boat engines that passed a mechanical survey fail with major problems within days of a good report. There can be no guarantees because no engine survey/PPI can identify things that are about to fail but working fine at the time of the inspection.

 

Through carfax and previous owners I was bale to call the service stations that worked on my car and obtain 80% of the missing records. Since my car spent most of it's life in Costa mesa and San Diego there were only a few Ferrari service places and I lucked out and got records from both including a PPI that was done by a prior owner. So if you can prove where the car spent it's life you can probably, with some luck, find the local service station which should still have copies of services records. You can also be so bold as to locate prior owners fo at least a verbal description of the cars history. What I want to know is why so many cars are lacking the original tools and books. Where the heck did those run off too?

 

Ebay! Some people, once they get rid of the car, will ebay off the rest. The parts are worth more than the car whole... sad...

 

Mine has records back to the late 1990s, but nothing prior. I did have the most recent 15K belt services receipt at the time of purchase, which set the baseline for when I needed to have it done again. Now that I've had two majors on the car, I'd consider it sufficiently documented if I ever decided to sell. What's nice about a stack of receipts is that it shows the previous owner cared about the car and was organised and responsible enough to keep a file on it.

Anything that has not been documented as having been replaced -- fuel lines, water pump, brake lines, coolant hoses -- needs to be evaluated immediately, mostly for safety reasons. Especially fuel lines, where you don't want to economize.

With zero records you're absolutely dependent on a thorough PPI, and you can assume it needs a 30K major service immediately. I paid $5500 for that a few months back. Ferrari of San Diego actually takes the engine out and charges $9300. Those prices go up with incidentals.

With regard to Jeff K's post: I was offered a 47,000-mile FCA platinum 328 GTS back in 2005. The car had been restored to new condition -- with a book of receipts -- and would be a contender in any national concours. I think it sold in the mid $40K range back then. I was sorely tempted, but didn't want red/tan. It was a much better car than many of the usual 10,000-mile red/tan bubble cars that get rolled off the truck and onto the concours lawn for their annual exposure to daylight.

 

Many of you here do your own maintaince on a 328 since it's not that hard, so how do you document DIY stuffs?

Will a DIY car worth less than Ferrari dealer maintained car provided that they all use the same parts?

 

If I DIY ANYTHING on ANY car I keep the parts receipt and write the date and mileage the service or "fix" was done. As far as what it is worth. Personally given the nature of the "dreaded timing belt time bomb" , I'd prefer a KNOWN Ferrari mechanic had done that. Other normal car stuff? Don't really care.

Again though, a PPI by a good Ferrari mechanic or a good look-over by someone who REALLY knows 3x8s would be a must.

 

***disclaimer****
This is just my opinion and I don't own a ferrari YET but.......
*** end of disclaimer***

I find these reply's very interesting. So here is my 2 cents. I owned and operated a garage for 6 years and am a licensed mechanic, what I find interesting is how much value is put on the maintenance and records.The reliability of these cars actually scares me the way fchat enthusiasts talk about them.
We have to look at this as just another car to get the right perspective, If you buy your average American or foreign car, you do very little checking, you drive it, look at it, don't worry too much about records and if you think it's good, you buy it, now I don't think Ferrari's are any worse, but due to being exclusive and low volume, the people that have experience with them is low and parts are at a premium. More problems are caused by not being driven and stored properly than anything else and the fact that you can really wind these up to high RPM will not let you get away with the stuff we do to our daily drivers.

Would I buy a 21 year old 328 with no records from a seller with 0 feedback, you bet !, for what the seller is asking, NO WAY! he needs to have his expectations adjusted by not bidding on the car or an insultingly low bid !, as stated many times "it's a buyers market" keep your emotions out of it.


Thanks to the knowledge of the community on this board, cars like this are now a possibility for many, but more so if you can do the work. If you have to pay for all the work, well I'd probably RUN as far away as possible. Sure, cost of entry is low, but maintenance is higher than ever and sorting the car out still ?, from a DIY perspective, you will spend an insane amount of time to get one of these "really right" and you can't put any value on your time !. Only you (maybe even your Wife) and your pocket book will appreciate it.for a non-DIYer it's just not worth it, it'll be way cheaper overall to get a solid, fully documented / serviced car up front.

 

Fairview,
How can you be talking about this car and the Holt's car in the same sentence!

The Holt car is a pristine 308 that is perfect for the collector while this car seems like just another cheap unloved 328. I think you should first decide what you are looking for. The guy looking for a 308 of that quality, would normally not be cross shopping with this kind of 328. You need to ask yourself what you intend to do with the car, show? drive? track? etc. Then buy the best car you can for the purpose, while still leaving a sizable bank book aside for maintenance, etc.

In this economy, there is no need to rush. Take your time, decide what you want, and go get it!

Good luck!

 

Ditto that!

I recently bought a 308 off ebay and, guess what, no tool kit, jack, manual, etc. I just KNOW the guy yanked those out to sell separately later on - bastard! It's that kind of nickle and dime cheating bull**** that drives a person crazy. You're either a man or a mouse - hint: the mouse is the one selling these bits separately 30 later on ebay....

 

Hi JoeZaff,

That's a good point. That's the reason I'm asking "would you buy a 328 without records?". The Holt's car has records, this 328 doesn't. Isn't that the main difference? Do the photographs show that much difference in the condition of the cars? So why does the Holt's car, which is older and a 308 vs. a 328, seem to be worth a big premium? Is it worth $10K to $15K to have the records?

In running Carfax on both cars, they have similar history as to number of owners, sporadic use over the years. So why not buy the 328 and do a major service, start my own record keeping? Holt seems firm on his asking price of $50K, so I'd have a 328 for less money with a fresh major service.

Maybe I'm missing some other reason that puts the Holt car way above the 328.

Jeff

 

Not to sound rude, but if you can't see the difference between the Holt car and this car, you probably shouldn't be looking at the Holt car at all. The Holt car has all records, tools, books, even the window sticker!, is a documented low mileage car, with what appeared to me to be spectacular paint and exceptional leather. Now, I only spent a few minutes with the car, but I walked away thinking it was stunning. The person willing to pay a "premium" for that car knows exactly what he wants...a time capsule 308QV, from a top drawer seller, perhaps for show or investment purposes. Anyone else would probably be better served buying any one of the excellent 308's that pop up from time to time from reliable f-chatters. The 328 you are looking at has no records, so you really don't know (1) if the mileage is correct and (2) if the car has ever been maintained at all. Even at its starting bid price, that car is going to be 40K plus 5-8K for a full blown major. Then you may or may not have a nice 328. Why not just spend 30-35kG and get a really nice 308? If its a 328 you are after, you should probably be spending upper 40's to mid 50's to get a real nice one. IMHO, your first Ferrari should not be the one that has sat unloved for 5-6 years, and which you have no prior records, tools, or even books to read when you can't be in your garage staring at your new found love.

Just my .02

 

Hey JoeZaff,

I don't think that is rude at all, but what do you see in the photos that makes Holt's 308 so much nicer than that 328? The 328 in question reportedly has tools and books, appears to have very nice paint and leather, but there are no records. Cosmetically they are comparable unless I'm missing something in the photos. I realize your point about mileage, and records certainly help there.

It really emphasizes to me that records make a BIG difference, at least to some. It always has to me with my other cars, but I am trying to figure out if I'm overracting.

Thanks, Jeff

 

taking lots of pictures of any job i do

 

If I do work, as in when I replaced the Cat converter, I document it just like a shop would, using a printed out receipt on the computer and put it in the maint record book the car had when I received it. I attach any parts receipt to the form but also list it in the form. In other words, it looks just as "professional" as it would look if regular shop did it, including labor time. For example, on my 328 "my bill" for the cat converter is on a page between the page of the PPI and the page containing the MD inspection. Obviously, there is no shop label on the top of my personal "bills", I just use my name. The first item in the record book is the original window sticker and the last item is my bill for the chrome shift knob/aluminum pedal installation.

 

I would not buy that 328 at that price.

I bought my 328 sight unseen, 35k miles with no records of any kind for less money than that 8 years ago. I knew it had no records, and I knew it would need work. The price I paid reflected it. I paid for the PPI and knew what I was getting into.

In this market, I think you could buy a fully sorted 328 with similar mileage and more complete records for $40k. The fact that the guy has owned it 5 years and has done nothing but an oil changes speaks volumes as well. 1 oil change in 5 years is pretty scary.

The advice to have $10k ready for maintenance is right on target, as is the advice to have another $5k in reserve. As soon as you start driving it, things are going to start breaking. Count on it.

Hell, for $40k, I'd be tempted to sell you my now 58k mile car, with 8 year of meticulous records.....

 

Agreed. When I clicked the link, I was expecting to see a car for around $32k. No way would I buy a 328 without records for $40k. Heck, you need a major for sure. So now you are looking at a $46k 328. You can find better these days.

 

Jeff,
Jimpo1 really hit it on the head with his comments. Service records demonstrate a level of commitment to the car, there also your insurance that the car has been taken care of. There is nothing worse than a bad Ferrari. The car you are looking at has no records and you know for a fact that is has sat unloved for 5-6 years, with no legitimate maintenance whatsoever. These type of cars come along all the time on ebay and they are nothing special, especially at that price. Holts 308, by contrast, is a very rare find, but more appropriate for someone who is going to appreciate it for what it is, then someone looking for a nice first Ferrari. If you walk away with nothing else from this thread it is that a well maintained Ferrari, regardless of mileage, will ALWAYS be better than a low mileage Ferrari of uncertain quality.
Do not rely on a PPI to tell you the story. A PPI can only tell you so much and things will always be missed. The ramifications of having a poorly maintained Ferrari will rear their ugly head eventually, not maybe in year one or two, but by year three you will probably wish you had bought something else...especially in this market.

 

Sure, why not? If the price is right, and I have the opportunity to thoroughly inspect the car. Ferraris are no different than any other car in so much as they can be assessed to fully determine their condition.

Records are nice, but they don't mean everything. And, they won't necessarily predict what may happen to the car later. Why is it that most other used cars are bought and sold every day with no (or very few) records?

With a thorough examination, you can tell whether any car (even a Ferrari) has been well cared for, or abused, in its lifetime. And, "interviewing" the previous owner(s) to get a feel for the type of person they are can tell you a tremendous amount about the car they are selling.

That said, buying a used exotic from a third party (dealer / broker) who knows nothing of the car's history, and the car has no records, plus no previous ownership history is available.......Now that is a risky proposition, indeed!

 

Sm*rt*ss! LOL!

 

everyone wants reassurance when they make a capital purchase.
sure, they want to know the condition, lineage, defects,etc. of anything from a car to a mail order bride.
i would never buy a horse without looking at his teeth and up his nose.

my point here is you get what you pay for whether you do a ppi, prebid exam, or whatever.
if you feel your heart's desire can be had via ebay, well i guess that's your privilege.
but i wouldn't be crying about lack of observation in the same breath as "where's the documents,tools, books, etc."
when your new purchase is rolled off the truck. besides, is that what makes the engine fire?

as the wise old horse trader once said," if you want to buy a horse, you gotta look at the horse".

 

P.S.
i've furnished all maintenance documentaion for every car i've ever owned, all the way back
to my '61 olds cutless.
i doubt the paperwork ever was handed to the next owner.

 

GO LOOK AT THE CAR!

Look at it, drive it, etc. Can't tell **** from the pictures.