The official replica/re-creation thread

very nice.What did they chop up?
www.paringoutohos.com.au

 

500k for a perfect replica like new......The guys with the originals can put MILLIONS.....IN But in this current crisis who knows were they will be after all of the washing thru....500K A GOOD BET....

 

They look nice at a glance, but like a lot of these, all except the most expensive car on that site share a fault: the windscreen top corners are too high to my eye.
Yes, how one can decide to prefer this to a proper F-40 is beyond me, and in this economy you even come close to some very nice original classic V-12 machines.

 

I understand the desire to build some sort of replica when the original is beyond reach either because of price, scarcity, or some combination of the two. What I do not understand is the need to destroy a perfectly good car in order to do so. It seems to me that there are enough rusted out pieces of junk out there that one could use as a donor from which the engine, and possible transmission could come, that you could build a very well constructed replica based on a custom frame.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

 

Exactly! and some very nice ones too. A Pininfarina Cab series II can be had for that kind of money...and many closed tops out there for even less...When these 'repicas' were about 100k, they were a bargain...no longer...

 

Replicas are definitely going up. Never did I think I would live long enough to see a replica thread glued to the top of this forum! Best wishes, Kare

 

Was wondering about this as well. Maybe it's time for a chop-forum, or a forum-chop.

 

Absolutely. I won't be spending my money on a replica - some wonderful machines on the market now. Although I can understand people not choosing an F-40 (I won't be either), I am puzzled by a 250GTO replica that sells for the same price as a 250 Ellena PLUS a 365 GTC... (both for sale at DK Engineering). Those are SERIOUSLY desirable cars (even if the Ellena has a non-original engine)!


Onno

 

You'r right. Go to Classic Cars by Renucci and have a look at their LWB 250 California kit.I am building one for the very reasons stated above and more.. Any questions I am at [email protected] just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Sums up this sites opinion of them I guess.

Pete

 

I know that no matter what I may say, many in the Ferrari community will look down on my project, my perspective, and even myself. For many reasons. So be it.
But I feel the need to voice the thought process that brought me to my decision. That possibly, it might show a viable reason why someone would build a replica. I have no doubt than some here will dismiss this without even thinking about it, while others I hope will understand.
I am building a replica of a Lancia Stratos. While not a Ferrari, it is Ferrari powered and Italian. Mind, that I can afford to purchase an original Stratos if I wanted too. Why then would I be building a replica instead of owning an original?
The Stratos used a derivative of the Dino V6 for motivation. I have always felt that it truly deserved a V8 (ala 308, 328). Along with some more modern rubber and brakes.
Not a full redesign, just some upgrades.
Could I “butcher” an original Stratos to make my vision of what that car could / should have been? Yes, but I couldn’t bring myself to do that.
Consider that the Stratos was generally a “parts bin special” anyway with the majority of the parts, short of the chassis, coming from something else in the Fiat / Lancia / Ferrari lines. So I’m starting with an aftermarket chassis. Most of the parts will be original. (I purchased the majority of Dennis McCanns Stratos parts)

I want to address some of the issues I have seen discussed here.

1. Passing replicas off as originals. And / or badging the vehicle.
Will I ever attempt to pass my car off as an original? Absolutely NOT. No replica should ever be presented as factory built. Will there be Lancia emblems on my car. Yes, in as much as what was on a race replica paint job. Also, I want people to know what it is. Although not factory built, credit is due towards Bertone and Lancia for the design.

2. Use of an “original” car being consumed / destroyed to create the “replica”.
That is obviously not the case here. I personally agree that no car should be purposely destroyed to create something else. But, if the said “original” is beyond repair, part it out, or build what you like from it.

3. If you can’t afford an original, stay out of the sandbox. You don’t have the right to desire something you can’t afford. So go play with your Fiats, or Pintos, or whatever.
But in my case, I can afford an original. What would be more offensive? To permanently modify an original? Or build / own a replica?
I understand someone that wants an experience as close to the real thing a possible. Like a 250 GTO built from real Ferrari parts, or a Kirkham Cobra. You get 99% for far less money.
Maybe I am delusional (because I can’t afford a real GTO), but even if I could, I would have a replica built to flog to death. I would never risk my multi-million dollar investment.

4. Angst surrounding replicas revolves around the poor, sad interpretations. Like the Fierro’s, Corvettes, Datsuns, etc
I agree that those are truly bad attempts at recreation and far from the original in performance, looks, etc. They pay no homage or respect to the originals, or the designers of them.

I am not trying to justify my position. Ultimately I don't care and I'm going to build what I want. I just wanted share another viewpoint. I am prepared for the onslaught.

Reed H

 

As stated in the GTO-thread, your view under 3. is appalling.

Otherwise you're spot on.

 

Jack,
I guess I wasn’t clear on my intent with number 3. I was trying to make the point that I feel that anyone should be able to build a replica if they want (not just play with lesser cars, as has been said by some on here).
I was attempting to preemptively strike the responses surrounding "If you can't afford it, don't play".

I was also trying to make the point that even if you can afford an original why would you not want a replica to thrash on a daily basis. I don't feel that these experiences should only be for the rich and elite.

To clarify a point. My kit (from the UK) is very accurate, and will produce a replica within 90% or better of an original. I'm not trying to say that mine is more worthy than some Fiero with a 308 body, both are replicas. But mine will be almost indistinguishable from an original, short of opening the bonnet and will outright out-perform the original. But many of the replicas out there are sad attempts. They neither look the part or act the part. In most of those cases the time and money spent to create that Fiero 308 would have been better spent purchasing a real fixer upper 308.
I question why someone would spend 25K to build that thing when they could have bought a real 308. Don't get me wrong, I know that if someone spent the time and the money to do suspension mods, engine mods, interior mods, etc a person could build a Fiero that would out-perform a 328. But since 328's are still within the realm of affordability and someone would have ultimately spent more than it would have been to buy a 328. Why do the project?
Once cars become collectible and rare, the prices are driven up past the point of true value for the performance or hardware. You can replicate the look and performance for less then the original. But I think the real point here is, if you are going to replicate, at least set a goal to match the original. Otherwise, it is a shadow.

Reed H

 

Reed, I've posted before about replicas and the reasons I don't like them, but I am okay with what you are doing.

Your car is a re-creation of a car that was "parts-bin" to start with. You want to "improve" it over the original with a bigger engine and some more modern components. I can get behind that.

But, unless the car is mostly intact as built by Lancia, I don't support having a Lancia badge on it. If the body was actually built by Bertone, than it should have a Bertone badge. If not, then it shouldn't.

In short, sounds like a way-cool, original hot rod. I commend you for not trying to pass it off as something it's not. I don't think you're insulting Lancia's heritage in any way (which Fiero owners do when they put ugly, ill-fitting, and badly proportioned plastic model parts on their cars and then proudly badge and/or claim that they drive "Ferraris.")

So no arguments here, except that you should be very, very careful with the badging.

 

Reed,

That comes accross a very different viewpoint, and I agree.

I have no problem whatsoever with the Stratos kits, you don't butcher something else to build it, although you'll have to visit many scrapyards by now to find all the instruments and switchgear, as an example. You're not going to buy a Fiat 124 Coupe *I believe( just to scavenge the dash.
The whole principle is opposite to what a bunch of us have a problem with, it doesn't apply to your project.

A real Stratos is certainly not a bad performer. I'd have to look up what HP the 4-valve Dino engine made in it, but it would come close to a stock 3X8 I imagine. With a 3X8 powerplant it'll certainly make an exciting toy.

I am in agreement with Bradley though, badges are a no-no.

YMMV, Jack.

 

No it is because original now historic (to many) Ferraris are ruined to create them. I personally don't give a rats @rse if somebody wants to create a GTO replica on a common Datsun (although a 240Z is a great car in it's own right ...). Good on them for making something ... and good on them for leaving irreplaceable old Ferraris alone.

I also don't have a problem with your Stratos either ... would have if you were using a 206 or 246 engine, but you are using the more common 308 engine, and you did not purchase a 308 to cut up, etc.

Pete

 

So you wouldn't mind about a 250 GTO replica based on a wrecked 550?

As a hypothetical question.

 

Absolutely 100% correct, and that has always been my position.

You cannot go back to Ferrari and say make another 62 250 GTE 2+2 ... and chuck in some history as well, but you can absolutely go to Ferrari and purchase a brand new 575 (not sure what is the latest one). Plus if a 550 is wrecked then it was probably replaced by insurance and we are not depleting the species that much or that we care yet.

Same with period rebodies ... they were great and interesting, but we left the 60's ages ago, so now it is time to look after the survivors.
Pete

 

Having been involved with a replica 246-engined Stratos and owned a real one, upgraded in period to Group 4 spec, I can advise you that, whilst you may end up with an entertaining and quick car, it won't perform, sound or feel much like the real thing. The Hawk chassis is more benign than a real car. Easier for average drivers, but less thrills. No matter how big an engine you squeeze in, a real Group 4 car will still be faster. Your final drive will be wrong, you won't have a close ratio gearbox, you won't have quick-change drop gears, etc, etc, etc. There's a whole lot more to a Stratos than a "parts bin" special.

What I found particularly frustrating about the replica is that the very first question 90% of people will ask you is "is it a replica?". You quickly tire of the downcast look in their eyes when you admit that your carefully badged and painted car isn't real.

 

Exactly what Kare has been saying happens with all replicas, no matter how good ... soon I suspect car is sold, and downward it spirals until it is wrecked for parts. Another one lost.

This is why Kare correctly states the car is destroyed when it is the basis of a replica.
Pete

 

I now know what to ask you at Port Fairy!
'Is it a replicar Spider?"

 

Ian,

What made you decide for the Hawk as opposed to the other supplier? (their name escaped me, but also UK and I think they started way before Hawk)

 

I didn't own it, but co-drove it in events. A close friend bought it second hand and, yes it was built by Hawke in their previous iteration, the name of which escapes me. It was a lot of fun, I remember 4 wheel drifting it at 90mph climbing an escarpment - you can't do that in a real Stratos! Had an alloy 206 motor (from a Fiat Dino) taken out to 2300cc, big valve heads, etc and making 250-ish hp.

We then bought the Group 4 car between us, a restoration project of a car that had run for several years in the Maranello cup in the UK. It was an utterly different experience. A big step up in acceleration, grip and braking. Plus the monocoque is stiffer and lighter than the steel tube construction of the replica. They really are an amazing piece of engineering.

Still a Stratos though - no headroom (warning, sit in your seat with a helmet on before you finalise the fitting), no ventilation and they do like to swap ends so demand total concentration all of the time.

 

So for all you 250 GTE 2+2 haters ... had to post a quote from another thread:

Pete

 

Pete,

I don't think it is so much about GTE-haters than about the love for some very scarce cars.

I see the point you're trying to make, but there is one major component missing: desire.