LH lied to stewards?

Not defending Michael at Monaco but from an FIA standpoint......you can come to the conclusion that the incident was caused by MS but you can not prove that he was lying. In this case, you have audio recordings vs. what LH told the stewards which is a different story. All the teams work to gain an advantage and nice guys don't always win the race. But for LH to lie in front of the stewards, and get completely caught, he has to be punished.

 

My sentiments exactly. I still think the punishment was excessive because the infraction occurred after the race. Give him a 10-spot grid penalty for Malaysia, but don't set a precedence by changing the results of a race for something that happened off the track. That's simply ludicrous.

All said, you hit at the heart of issue, imo.

 

But that's like saying "just because we caught him with a gun, with powder marks on his hands, and the victim lying dead of a gunshot wound matching the caliber of the gun and the bullet marks matching the gun barrel, we can't prove he shot her... ".

I think you can prove MS lied... the telemetry showed that the only possible way he would have been unable to make the corner was if he applied the brakes harder than he had done all weekend (at a lower speed) intentionally locking up and then edging forward so as not to be able to make the turn. MS took at least two seperate actions that, together, caused him to become 'stranded'. If it was just one or the other, he'd have made the turn, but together they caused him to be 'stuck'. The likelihood they happened accidentally together just at that particular time are infinitesimal. Just like the likelihook that the guy I mentioned in my opening sentence just happened to enter the room and reach for the gun as someone else shot her and then ran away.

You're not going to get MS saying he lied, but in a way it's almost worse, since even after the FIA/stewards knew he lied, he claimed he didn't. I'd say the standard would have to be "preponderence of evidence". We know LH lied because he admitted it and shame on him. He's paid a price for that. I think his price was fair but a lot higher a price than MS paid for a worse infraction.



The thing that I find funny about the whole thing is people talking about Trulli being "vindicated"... I don't think so at all. He shouldn't have passed Hamilton. It seems the audio transcript shows that Trulli didn't pass because Hamilton slowed but because he took the position back thinking it should be his.

Irony... did Trulli lie when he said he passed Hamilton because he had slowed? Who cares I guess, just still think there are very un-equal punishments across different drivers. MS got more than his share... as did Alonso and Vettel. Curious that Barrichello seems to escape blame. He won't, though, if Brawn starts winning - he'll be under the microscope too!

 

'intentionally' being the keyword here and the fact of the matter is, you can't prove it. All you can prove is MS made a mistake. Whether or not he did it intentionally remains the question. An academical since he did receive a penalty and it is now water under the bridge.

In the current case, McLaren have been caught red handed. They have it on tape. No use defending them. They are guilty and that is that.

 

I can't imagine they would do that . . . but, I thought Button was done before Brawn showed up.

AND, LET'S GIVE CREDIT TO RICHARD BRANSON. Once again, he has the midas touch. Unbelievable timing, and a flair for the dramatic.

Man, I'd love to go to work for a guy like that--and I am my own boss right now (sort of).

 

If you are talking about the first corner mayhem, Rubens wasn't at fault. He got pushed from the back by Kovalainen.

 

Not to digress to much, but LH did not put any lives at risk with this, a little perspective in gravity of offence is needed maybe.

A nice read http://web.globalserve.net/~trauttf/Jacques/index.html

 

Bingo!

Nuff said.

 

Nonsense.

First of all, you are applying a higher burden of proof than even exists in capital punishment murder cases. The standard of proof isn't "there must be no doubt at all, not one little bit". The standard of proof would be a preponderence of evidence. You can't 'prove' it was Hamilton on the radio... maybe another team has a voice actor and secretly switched the tapes? Totally ridiculous, of course, but so is the idea that the level of proof required is "there can be zero doubt" - life and least of all sports don't work like that.

And to further the point, the FIA did infact conclude in the case of MS that he deliberately stopped the car in the turn and that his statments to the contrary were false (aka, he lied). It's right in the FIA report... it says "the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit in the last few minutes of Qualifying at a time at which he had thus far set the fastest lap time." They didn't hand him a light penalty of going to the back of the grid because there was no proof... their burden of proof was met, MS stopped his car deliberately on track, then lied about it. Based on their buden of proof being met, he went to the back.

The assertion that Hamiltons penalty was worse because he was proven to be lying but with MS it wasn't proven is nonsense... the facts are what they are, regardless of any rewritings of history.

And I do not defend Hamilton or suggest he shouldn't have been penalized. I do think that calls for multi-race bans are silly. He has already been heavily punished, more heavily punished than other drivers who made worse transgressions. I think justice has been served, and then some, and I think it's time to move on and continue racing.

And I feel bad for the McLaren guy that got fired... he had 30+ years with the team and left in tears. This idea that all these teams act in a morally and ethically correct way at all times is absurd. The McLaren guy who got axed was terminated for what I think happens every weekend in F1.

 

Maybe it won't now that the FIA has shown how seriously it takes it.

 

There are many rules in every sport. When a rule is broken, and is enforced by issuing a penalty on the guilty party, that enforcement has the hopeful effect of convincing others not to break the rules.

But then, that enforcement may not appear like much to some, and so they stretch even further from the bounds of the rules. When that happens, those chartered with enforcing the rules may increase the penalty that was previously observed by all, in an effort to stop this violation from occuring again.

Schumacher mislead the stewards at Monaco. Got a penalty. Hamilton mislead the stewards in Australia, got the more severe penalty. Seems like anyone else breaking the same rule in the future may get an even worse penalty.

The reality is in this instance, a rule was broken and the FIA is obviously not going to take it as before. And if any drivers lies to the FIA in the future, be it Massa or Raikkonen, they should be thrown out for the season. So comparisons from seasons past really do not mean much in this specific situation.

I feel badly for a 30 year employee being suspended from his career, but then, he did instruct his coworker to break the rules. I would assume that with 30 years service, this individual was reasonably intelligent. So whatever possessed him to promote a lie to the governing body does not make any sense. Sport is business, and just as in any business, if you are responsible for intentionally breaking a law, you likely get canned. I am not sure of McLaren's interpretation of "suspended"

Yet no one held a gun to Hamilton's head and forced him to respond as he did. Certainly his contract with McLaren is pretty strong, and doubtful he would be let go by McLaren for disagreeing with the intentional violation of a rule. So he is just as guilty as his team manager. In fact, not disagreeing with the team manager in my opinion makes Hamilton's judgement very questionable.

It is ludicrous to imagine that stating fact is "bashing" a public figure, and Hamilton's actions are fact. I have been asked to lie before, and I had no choice but say no. Actually I resigned on the spot. Why Hamilton just did not say no to his team manger is an unknown.

Hamilton's actions have nothing to do with past situations involving other drivers, nothing to do with Michael Schumacher, nothing to do with Max Mosley, nothing to do with any FIA conspiracy, nothing to do with anything except his own conscience. And the negative image he will probably carry for some time.


From todays press conference:

Q. (Jonathan Legard – BBC) So what got lost in translation? Lewis gave this interview or interviews saying 'I was asked' and then said ‘no' in the stewards' inquiry. Why, why did that happen?

Martin Whitmarsh: Well, I think Lewis got out of the car and gave a truthful account of what happened. I believe that whilst they were at the stewards, Dave, who had been party to what had happened in Spa, was highly sensitive and I think in the heat of the moment, his judgment was to not give a true account, and I think Lewis was then led by that.

 

At one time, races were decided at the track. If Whiting and his thinktank had been doing more than sitting on their hands during a lengthy yellow, they could have issued an immediate directive, something along the lines of 'Jarno P3, Lewis P4'. End of story.
Due to their own incompetence, we have a ridiculous flap erupt from nothing, fortuitously allowing these imbeciles to camouflage their torpor by flailing about and tossing misrepresentative penalties after the fact ( cue the Python Twits of the Year skit...).

McHam bothers me (has from day one) but the man finished fourth in the race. Yes, he lied, or someone told him to for reasons difficult to imagine. Big deal. Plaster a sizable Pinocchio decal on his car for the rest of the season as a penalty and give him his points. No need for anyone at Mclaren to be fired over this fluff, the true cause lies elsewhere.

 

Isobel, the day lying to officials is taken for granted and goes unpunished in sport, is the day we no longer by definition have a sport.

 

The dichotomy is that we are lied to constantly by sports...has the FIA, Bernie et al been honest with us? If so, why do so many of us believe that the F1 WDC/WCC results are engineered?

At this point, my enjoyment of F1 is tempered by cynicism. The continuous streams of decisions like those of last weekend only add to my belief that a maniacal megalomaniac runs the sport and sets rules on a whim. Lying and cheating is absolutely a part of modern sports...the punitive actions against those who do either depends on who's to be made an example of.

 

Rick, I do not think we are so much lied to by sports, but more so by the sports figures we would like to admire. Possibly this is what you meant. Too much greed.

Lying and cheating may be a part of modern sports, but I believe that there must be a strong effort to control this, otherwise, as I said, we no longer have sports. I can not agree with Isobel's surprising willingness to minimize the situation that brought McLaren admittedly more shame. I certainly will not avoid the truth and fact and put blame on those that are chartered with making sure the rules are followed. There is no way to suggest with fact that the stewards were sitting on their hands. And even if they were, that had nothing to do with the lies that followed. Twist as some would like, but nothing.

The problem is that those that are responsible for making the rules, and those that are responsible for enforcing the rules, can not and should not have to make everyone happy. Just read many of the posts here, many are based on an individuals personal bias about a particular driver or team. Can anyone make the argument that Lewis Hamilton did not in fact lie, when he himself and his team principal have so admitted? Yet I read excuse after excuse. And to suggest that in the sport of F1, Max Mosely is making rules on a whim? No way. These are large budget factory teams, that could and would go elsewhere if they felt that Bernie and Max were the evil twins some people on FChat wish to believe.

There are also many that do not believe F1 results are engineered, probably the majority of fans. Look at the TV and attendance figures, they dip, but they are still strong. I personally believe that the possibility exists that there is an effort to tamper with the result to create a better marketing product, AKA NASCAR's bunching of cars with 10 laps to go. But I do not believe in the accusation of favoritism. Did Ferrari put McLaren up to its self destructive actions the past three years? I also believe that you can not compare a situation today with one of 5 years ago. Much is different, and the people enforcing the rules are not all the same.

Nor do I believe there is a intentional distribution of penalties depending on who you are. Too obvious. I have no proof either way, does anyone here have such proof? If you ask the drivers themselves, they would not agree with this assessment. To me that is a more credible opinion. I personally do not want to see Hamilton suspended from the sport, his DQ was more than sufficeint for his part in this debacle. But I would like to see Team McLaren handed a large fine, a team manager in auto racing's grandest form intentionally lied. That is fact. That is pathetic. Twice in three seasons this team is caught in a lie? Gotta be a record of some sort.

Consider, we do not see the teams complaining. Even those that finish dead last. Seems they would be the first to step up and complain that the results were engineered. After all, you spend millions to promote your Toyota, or Honda, or Mercedes, or Renault, only to have the organizing body control results? Not happening. Cause it doesn't happen. And I do not believe that these drivers are merely actors. For me that is a ridiculous consideration.

Can you, or anyone prove that the FIA has been lying? Bernie, that is another story, but can you prove he has been lying?? Not your opinion, but actual proof. I can't, and the people I know in the sport also can't. And please, if anyone decides to answer these questions, do it with fact, not by making insinuations or calling me names.

And I see no problem with the way the situation was handled last weekend, except that Charlie Whiting took McLaren at its word, a known big mistake. I doubt if it happens again. I have been in an F1 race control center, you can never have enough people, and many times they all have their hands full of race issues, not their rectums.

Personally, I am no longer going to ruin my enjoyment of this sport or any sport because of a bunch of emotionally driven biased opinions by people who are not even present at these events. If the teams and particpants are happy, and they put on a good show, then I will continue to watch and enjoy. It is too bad that many here chose to take a negative view, its their loss. F1 is doing well, its different, but still good.

From the first race in Austrailia, I believe that F1 will be very exciting this year. Maybe the best season in years.

Thanks

 

+100000 to infinite
Is, spot on this is the heart of the issue, the rest on on here are just rejoicing in the fact LH has now NO point's, if it were Massa under the cosh you would hear nothing from the self proclaimed oracle they'd be sulking under some rock!

 

Has anyone ever watched top profesional level football/soccer like the World Cup? Now that sport is full of lies and untruths in any game, and without shame or remorse. They lie lie and lie to officials during a single game. They will fall/dive to the floor pretending they were tripped, some times acting like there injured. They are looking for a free kick or a decision to swing there way, and when its over looked they just get up and carry on as normal Now these players are earining up to 50 million £ a year. Take a look at these and have a laugh at there antics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPG_lnblSuA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMszaK3E7K0

 

Exactly. It happens across a lot of sports in similar fashion. I just don't think there is a such thing as a "pure" sport in this time that doesn't employ lying and cheating as part of its M.O. Again, a fish stinks from the head and so do the sports of today. Golf is probably the one sport where no type of cheating/lying is tolerated. Others, like the following, have been implicated in cheating scandals in one form or another:

Cycling Wrestling
American Football UFC/MMA
World Cup Football Gymnastics
Baseball Swimming
Basketball Tennis
Athletics/Track and Field
Auto Racing
Boxing
Volleyball

...and so on. Some of the cheating/lying is by participants, others by judges and officials. All said, I can't listen to sanctimonious and uneven judgment in these types of hypocritical decisions. And, no, Ron I don't have proof of the cheating. I'm not that dedicated to finding it, but you can find all sorts of examples of scandal in each of the sports listed above. One only has to look in order to see.

 

100% Correct B, the only difference here is it suits there argument, to make out LH is the biggest liar to walk the face of the earth, so much so I can taste the sour grapes from here, you'd hear nothing if it was Massa.

 

I agree with your assessment of soccer, and this applies to many other field sports. The NBA comes to mind.

Yet what would happen if there were no officiating at all? In any sport? My point is you have to make whatever attempt is possible to enforce the rules, or you have no level playing field whatsoever. It then is not a sport, but strictly some sort of carnival show.

I also do not believe auto racing, and F1 specifically in the discussion, need put themselves in the same category as other sports when it comes to enforcing the rules. So I do not accept the argument that episodes like Hamilton, or previously Schumacher, or Senna, or Alonso, etc, should go unpunished.

Once again, no one forced Hamilton to mislead the stewards, to think this should have gone unpunished can only be the voice of bias, if one driver is allowed to escape with this attitude, then all will feel the same. Hamilton's punishment was due to reasons separate from the events on the track in Austrailia. It was his misinformation that got him in trouble, not the confusion during the yellow so to bring the FIA and the stewards in to this is silly. From the radio transmissions, it sure seemed like McLaren was trying to do the right thing, but then botched it when driver and team manager basically lied. The fact is they lied. For absolutetely unimaginable reasons.

At least Hamilton, for whatever reason, did admit his error. As did Martin Whitmarsh. I certainly do not believe that he or the team should be banned for the rest of the year, I think his penalty was severe enough. As I stated before, Team McLaren should receive a penalty as the team manager represents the team, but nothing that would affect the driver to any further extent.

Like him or not, like McLaren or not, they are both needed on the grid this season.

 

Rick, my response to you is the same as the one above to "zero". Thanks

 

I agree with Ron. Surely it should be an objective to make every sport clean, honest and open. Pie in the sky? Maybe, but to accept any breaking of the rules as something that has to be lived with cannot be the right way to go. In this case LH and McLaren were wrong and stupid and there should be a proportionate penalty.

 

Let's not forget that Lewis is still in his early 20's. Regardless of his development as a racing driver, he is still 'young' and subject to youthful transgressions. He was undoubtably led down this ruinous path by McLaren management, who should shoulder most of the blame. He should have known better than to have acquiesced to such stupid instructions. I have no doubt that LH will from now on exert himself forcefully with any further management interference when it comes to ethics. Regardless of the debacle, LH came from the back of the pack to 4th (disq.)....and that is not something to be discounted. He will still most likely rewrite the record books in this sport.

 

Would be interesting to know what would have happened in the Mclaren camp. Had Lewis not done as he was told told to do. As he said he is a team player, and a young one at that. How would the team have treated him? I believe most other young drivers in F1 would have done as they were instructed by there respective teams. No matter how Rossy your idealistic spectacles are.