Hi Men, ...there are 2 very good Maserati race cars for sale with the upcoming RM-auction in Maranello (a 250F and a very rare 250S) but totally silence on this forum while the collegues on the Ferrari-section are discussing every nut n`bolt of the horse-cars that are the main subject in that event! Very strange and somewhat dissapointing! Ciao! Walter
Wow, that 250F is gorgeous. Hands down, my favorite Maserati. I wish I had a spare 2 million Euro laying around! http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=FF09&CarID=r127 Mike
Not that surprising. A lot of Maserati owners are not even close to being able to buy such a superlative racing example. Whereas the Ferrari forum has a much better shot at this. The Maserati forum also has low volume. Not that strange but I get your point Walter. Are they discussing these tow examples in that thread? Bob S.
Maybe it's because we don't have a separate forum for these cars! Just a joke I couldn't resist. These cars are more for discussion on the Historians list than on FChat. Since I am not a buyer for either car, I can only hope that they end up in the US with one of the collectors that participates in our event so a lot of people can have the opportunity to view the cars. Joe
Hello Walter: Perhaps it is matter of the ratio between enthusiasts and speculators being different? I personally take no interest in prices and only follow them at a distance. I consider an auction to be the most boring event there is and usually just go to previews. best regards, Marc
Marc, The previews are social events, while the auctions can be a bit slow for someone like myself that is used to the sales at Manheim where a car get less than a minute on the block. Where these auctions really get good is during a duel between 2 high profile bidders with deep pockets, the atmosphere is electric and you can cut the tension with a knife. Not the BS you see on TV at BJ, but at places where the really high dollar cars are being sold. There is nothing like sitting next to someone while their bidding 4 million dollars on a car only to have their bid raised. Joe
Being a former owner of this 250S, #2431, I think it is a shame (or: rather typical) that the auction catalogue omits the value-determing fact that the car has a replica engine and a replica gearbox. Yours truly has written a long letter to the head of RM Europe, Max Girado, about this misrepresentation that IMHO is asking for a law-suit from a future buyer. Although I know him quite well he has not deigned to answer my e-mail. I guess they think a short sale-room notice or a quick announcement over the PA system is sufficient. It remains a great car even with the new engine and gearbox and a survey of how many 200/250Ss lost their original engines or are racing with replica 2.5 litre engines would be quite revealing. Regards Wolfi
Hello Joe. Well to each his own I guess I would rather watch paint dry or take up fly fishing..but give me a fun car and challenging road or track and I am happy! best regards, Marc
Mike, most of the members on the Ferrari-sections never had or will have the chance to sit in such a car! But: they are discussing the histories of this great vehicles why the Maserati-forum here remains in silence! A real pitty! Ciao! Walter
Marc, its not the price of those cars that have -IMO- the issue of a discussion here on our esteemed Maserati-section. But I wondered that nobody here mentioned ANYTHING about both great cars. History belongs to all of us - even when there is not the cash to buy those "real" Maseratis! Ciao! Walter
Joe, you don`t need to be a possible buyer for such cars! As I mentioned before: not much of those Ferrari-chaps have the cash to buy an SWB, Cal.-Spyder, not to mention the great TR! Ciao! Walter
Can`t agree more on this! I was contacted by RM regarding the non-matching-no. motor. I clearly confirmed that there is an original (!) but non-matching engine in he car! Its beyond my knowledge why they call this unit now a "replica-motor".......! But why it needs a "...lawsuit from a future buyer" is also not known by me. IMO it needs a lawsuit from the current owner if this RM-statement will lead to a no-sale of the car etc.! Its a fantastic car but over- and in some small details not correctly restored. What it needs is usage! Ciao! Walter
I clearly confirmed that there is an original (!) but non-matching engine in he car! Its beyond my knowledge why they call this unit now a "replica-motor".......! No, the engine in the car is a new unit built by GPS Classic from parts delivered by Steve Hart. The gearbox is a 5-speed unit that was built by Corrado Patella. I bought and paid for both parts. The British FIVA papers state that the engine is new. The catalogue does not call the engine anything, it is not mentioned at all. It solely speaks about the original chassis and body omitting the engine completely. Regards Wolfi
According to my infos, Peter Kaus once had an original engine for the car. He mentioned this in a personal conversation to me and claimed that this unit had been given to "someone in Italy who made the engine overhaul" prior to the sale of his collection to Holland! If there is a new motor in the car, then -of course!- you are right reg. a possible future legal dispute about the car. Ciao! Walter
So then what exactly are you asking for Walter. You'd like a bunch of pretenders to start discussing the car as if they really "knew" this vehicle? I mean I love the sound of that car and have always enjoyed Peter Giddings car as it hustles down the straight at Lime Rock. It's a damn symphony but other than that I can't add anything as I've never owned one. Wish I could! You have the right person already here but unfortunately it's not the sort of enjoyable topic you'd probably prefer. The topic of replacement mechanicals on vintage race cars is an interesting one though. How realistic is it for an old race car to still have all the original mechanicals? In race cars some of this stuff is changed like underwear. Personally, I'd prefer something that's fresh but authentic/accurate if I'm going to drive it. I don't wear 60 year old underwear, it just looks that way ... ;>) Bob S.
Bob, so then it doesn`t make any sense to discuss anything historical about those cars when you simply have no other interest in them other than only their "symhonic" sound! Interest in the historical subject doesn`t need the cash to own one of this cars! Btw - I never have or will have (..eh..well, I hope...) the funds to buy such of those Maserati-race cars! But this doesn`t keep my interest away from them. Yep, its very often not realistic but some of the 50ies racers still have their matching-no.-components. Those cars are the "jewels" doesn`t matter if they are horse-cars or Maseratis. ...and: people wearing 60 year old underwear I only watch -if only!!- from a great distance. So, I got you on this point.....! But ask an archaeologist to find someone in a Aegyptian tomb with 5000 year old pants on - he`d looooove it. :) Ciao! Walter
No I didn't mean it dosen't make sense just that it's not surprising to me that there's not a ton of discussion here about the car. I think it's great if they do! With the street vintage cars the ones that dfon't really get used seem to be more likely to have original authentic materials, even if they suck, used on them. That's crazy for a race car. Who would want 60 year old bearings, pistons or rings over modern ones if you're really going to use the thing. Fresh underwear when you go out on the track ... Bob S.
Bob, as you know - the original matching components are essential for the value and provenance of an old race car. That are market rules! Most of the current owners of such cars are using new engines in their vehicles to prevent the old matching-engines from any possible damage! If the original engine is missing but an original (!!) but non-matching-no. engine fitted, then I see this car still as a good car (and in partcular when the original body is still on the chassis!). If the original unit is lost the owner normally needs to find it again (this is mostly VERY difficult!). For example: the 300S #3057 lost its motor somewhere in Angola, Africa in the very late 50ies and has now a replica Cyril Embry-motor in that is FIA-accepted! I was offered an original 300S-engine from the US some years ago. I offered this non-matching motor to the then time German owner of #3057 who surprisingly denied the purchase (he had sold the car to the US only 2 days earlier!)! The orginal motor then was purchased by people in Italy who fitted the engine in a -possibly- replica! So, unfortunately #3057 stays today as a "not so good" 300S. As of #2431 it would have been a better solution to purchase an original 2-liter motor for the car prior its restoration than installing an 2,5-liter engine that is basicly a complete new unit. Since 3 years an original 2-liter engine, correctly stamped, is for sale together with many gearbox and differential parts. Ciao! Walter
Okay, Herr Baeumer you are right! I/we all should have chimed in awhile ago. I have been aware of this auction since it's announcement. An amazing oppertunity for thoese with the means to purchase these wonderful cars. We should all know and follow the heratige of these cars since many of the subscribers of this forms cars have a DIRECT link to the 250. If not for the 250 and a massive failure in the "Grain exhange for machine tools" fiasco of the 50's, we most likely would not have the 3500/GTIS/Mistral/ etc etc. ~Cheers then!
