0858 to be auctioned

Jim, My list was Walter, David Clarke, and PB. I'm thinking that's the David you're referring to.
I've never met Walter or seen his cars in person, however...
I would much rather start with something from him than the opposite example- 0826 comes to mind. David did a flawless job of conservancy and then RL got hold of her and sanitized er " "restored" " her, thus erasing all traces of history/patina/hands of the craftsmen who built her. Abominable.
With Krasnavian as my witness, I sincerely believe if David Clarke, Bill Serri, et al could see the fate of their cars at the hands of RL and his " "restorers" ", there would not be a happy person among them.
So for all of that, I would much prefer to start with 0858 as a collector, secure in the knowledge that the car hadn't had the history vacuumed out of it.

Jim, you have much more first-hand knowledge on this than I, but I'm just offering my opinion. Hope the garage is progressing nicely
Best,
Dave

 

Pardon my ignorance; what's the story with Kroymans?

 

David Clarke and PB I agree with. The David I meant is David Piper.

As for over Restoration you know I agree with you on that.

Best

 

http://www.autoblog.com/tag/kroymans/

Also see post # 10 here:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240347

Best

 

Jim, Of course you're right about David Piper. I think he's owned and looked after more of the 0800 series cars than just about anyone outside the factory.

Sorry to hear about Mr. Kroymans business reversal.
This will only add fuel to the fire to some young impertinent Fchatter wanting to start a 'ghost ship' GTO thread for 4757 with the premise being that just when you think she is securely in your grasp, she'll sail away under her own power (along with the help of gov't and or bank receivers).

 

There is a photo I have of the two cars on the track at lakeside some where I could scan if you like. It would be an interesting exercise to refit the same can am car with modern shocks and tyres and take the spare tyre off this time and see what time it would do around Bathurst. It would be nice to think it could beat the 600hp taxi's that run now..... in a sub 2 minute time perhaps?????
Mg

 

I'd just jump in a McLaren M8F ... spare tyre or not, surely it would beat the taxi's .

Pete

 

Why not drag out the beastie of all time...the 917/30 Porsche. That should give them a scare.
The scrotum tightens at the very thought.
MG

 

OK let's cut to the chase.

Which car won Monza?

Which car finished 2nd OA at Le Mans.

http://www.rmauctions.com/FeatureCars.cfm?SaleCode=FF09&CarID=r141

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0858.330P4.htm

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0856.330P4.htm

 

According to the latest feature article in FML 0858 for Monza and 0856 for Le Mans. Read the article as there is an allegation of the factory doing a swap on serial numbers.

Jeff

 

Big change. Very interesting.

 

Are you upset about the mid-nineties restoration if 0858? What did they do wrong?

 

it doesn't sound like he is saying anything is wrong with the resto. I think if anything he is saying he would rather have a car that isn't over restored and all of the history erased.

 

See post #88.
No. What I'm saying is that I would rather buy a car like 0858 than a car like 0826 which, despite its long-term custodians great care, was over-restored to the point of aggravation by its current owner. If you look up the cars, you'll see what I'm talking about- I don't really like to cite people's names out of respect for their privacy and in an attempt to avoid any personality conflicts or mud-slinging. But if you look up the two chassis numbers, all the personnel involved are very well-known in Fchat circles.

Hope this clarifies things.
Best,
Dave

 

Is it worth traveling to Maranello for a few days to watch this auction and see a few interesting things, as well as eat some good food? I am trying to justify it. A nice Italian meal is tempting me........

 

A few thoughts to add:

1. I believe 0858 is one of the 350 Can Ams briefly featured on Victory By Design. There were two -- A P3 and a P4 -- sitting on the front straight at what looked to be Laguna Seca, though I don't recall it having any livery as it does now.

2. To my eyes, (and this may be naive or repetitive) 0858 is only being marketed as a P4 to raise the dollar interest. A 350 Can Am (which is what it really is), with no record of great success in that series vs. the McLarens, doesn't have "it." Personally, given the extraordinary beauty and record it has as a P4, I'd re-convert it (though leaving the engine a 4.2).

3. Kroymans bankruptcy: Whoa. If that collection really has been seized, I'd guess it might affect the turnout at RM. It's fair to assume that some serious metal is about to hit the market so I'd guess a few bidders may be "distracted" by some imminent pickings.

Just an opinion.

 

2. Fair enough. In which case, why not go to Aubusson and make PB an offer on 0860. Save you the time and effort of having the same work done on 0858 and you would have what you seek. He's sold cars before. Who knows, he may have a more reasonable 'ask' on 0860 than we'll see on 0858 at auction.
Of course what you're saying is correct. RM is marketing it as a P4 for the $ and the fact that other than Fchatters and maybe 3 guys in a cave, no one knows what the hell a 350 Can Am is.
But here's the thing; you can buy a car, you can buy a race history, in the best case you can buy both- an original car with a great history.
Everyone knows that 0858 was built as the 2nd of the 3 330 P4's. And that it had the history it did- whatever that may be.
But unlike 0860, 0858 is in the form it was in when it left the hands of Ferrari, when they were done developing it. Heck, you could argue it's the ultimate P4 for that reason (although I'm not advocating that).
What's for sale with 0858 is a great original known car. And a truly rare opportunity. I don't mean this as a condemnation in any way of the choice PB made with 0860, but why throw things away and extinguish the continuous history this car has had- unaltered, unmodified- in the shape it was in when they rolled it out of the garages of the Scuderia.
I get that the shape of a P4 coupe is beautiful. I totally agree. But I'd almost rather scratch-build an exact copy, if that's what it took to keep this old stallion from being broken up and the last of its kind lost.
Up to the new owner. We'll see.

3. Maybe so. I would be interested in the opinion of Napolis. Who knows what the disposition of Mr. Kroymans cars is/will be, how soon they will come to market if they do, etc. I would think ultimately the effect at RM would be to introduce at most, a little uncertainty (in the sense that more blue chip cars may be coming to market soon), but that's just a guess.

Cheers,
Dave

 

You mean 0858 is in the form it was in when it left the hands of Australian race team called Scuderia Veloce. Did it return to Ferrari after them? Also did it actually race seriously after them?

Interestingly when they received this car it came with a huge amount of unexpected spares (for free) ... basically because nobody wanted them as the 350 Can Am was so uncompetitive.
Pete

 

I mean 0858 left the factory as a 350 Can Am and that's what it remains today. 0856 we all know is the 330 P4 it was when it left the factory. Neither statement is true for 0860.

If barchetta's race history is accurate, there is no shame in anything privateers accomplished after 0858 left the Scuderia's hands. And a number of 1st places. At what point did it become 'last years race car'? A moot point. It will always be one of the 3 factory P4's, albeit one that left the team's hands in a more-developed state than 0856.

Best,
Dave

 

These are interesting times. The Kroymans bankruptcy may bring a number of cars to the market including a 250 GTO. This is a very cool car but anyone who wants to use it should really think about how and what's involved.

Personally I don't see racing it in anger. I also think that while you could 0860 it something would be lost. Other's might not.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Numbers get tossed around like water and things change daily.

I remember when 0856 was on the lawn at Pebble with a sign identifying it as the Monza Winner.

"The accepted wisdom had chassis
number 0856, driven by Bandini and Amon,
winning this race. It was also believed
that chassis 0858, driven by Scarfiotti and
Parkes, finished second. However, the fac-
tory has told the present owner of 0856 that
his car did not win Monza, in fact it wasn’t
even there!"

FML


Things also change slowly.

I remember when I first began to think that there was more to the car I had bought from David.

Most thought I was nuts or trying to run some sort of scam.

Now the Historian who wrote the article in the latest FML about the History of the P 4's and the Auction Catalogue description for 0858 notes:

"between the two cars.
Chassis 0856, still as a 330 P4, was
sold to England and remains the only origi-
nal P4 in existence. It is now in the hands
of a prominent North American collector.
Chassis 0858 and 0860 were also sold off
and had some further competition history in
private hands. Eventually 0860 was con-
verted back to P4 configuration and is in a
collection in France and 0858 is coming up
at auction next month. While Ferrari insists
that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a
car exists with strong claims to be the resur-
rection of that car."


The Tides roll out, The Sun sets, The Tides will roll in and The Sun will rise.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Jim,

From your perch what is your opinion on where market price for this 350 falls? The latest Cavallino (#170) has $4-6M.

I suspect that you have a better feel for this than most of us in the peanut gallery.

Jeff

 

Mr. G,
Not to get too far off topic, but any interest in adding #4757 if/when it becomes available?
Erik

 

I don't put much stake in what Cavallino says. For example they also list prices for P3's. There are no P3's existant nor has a P3 ever been sold.

It's very hard to say. I always try to keep Bob's words in mind:

"Don't speak too soon for the wheel's still in spin..."

 

For a reasonable price. For sure.

 

Yes, Jim. So you did. And therein probably lies the real truth as to which car was actually the 2nd-placed Brands Hatch car ....

.... 0860 (as per 'conventional accepted wisdom') ....
.... or now 0858 as per the RM 'auction hype', backed by factory race records that have mysteriously come to light ....
.... at such an opportune time. Oh did I just type that ?

See also: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138599387&postcount=5