Originally Posted by Fast_ian View Post ... who's to say that if MS' and JB's positions were reversed it wouldn't be JB retired now with 7 WDC crowns? [I'm not saying that would have been the case, just that we'll never know.] well this was brought up in another thread so let's see what FChatters think! Options: Yes No You're smoking what !?
1 vote yes... 9 against... Didn't know Jenson's Dad was a member here... And Mr. Button. Button up your shirt!
Button has a great car, but it is way too soon to be comparing him to MS. Obviously, in F1 the car plays a HUGE role in how good or bad a driver looks. I am most impressed with how drivers make use of bad cars. For example, Massa is apparently no better than the car you plug him into--he couldn't pass an old lady in a minivan. Kimi is a fantastic driver----when he is not phoning it in (which is more and more often). However, and let the flames begin, Hamilton can drive the wheels off anything you put him in. Of anyone in F1 right now, he reminds me the most of MS. I know it is not very PC of me to say on Ferrarichat, but Hamilton is the most exciting driver on the grid...I just wish he raced for ANY OTHER TEAM. Do I lose my membership now?
He's placed that POS in the top-6 in every race (including the DQ 3rd in Australia), so I think it's safe to say he gets the most out of his car.
How you guys forget. You cannot compare LH to MS, you can compare LH to Jensen Button though ... although that is being too hard on LH. MS made a car similar to the POS that LH is currently driving win, in 96 and early 97 ... and MS also made an unsuccessful team win again with the help of Brawn, etc. All LH has done is sit in the best car on the grid and win enough races to bag the WDC. Now his car is not so good he is not winning and whinging about leaving F1, etc. Yes he has finished in the top 6 in every race, well done ... but I want to see a win please and I want to see a person build a successful team, uniting them as one team like MS did before this sort of talk please. Sorry Vettel is the new star in my eyes ... who is LH again? . LH is exciting but Vettel is a notch above IMO. And yes JB can win races like MS did from 2001 on, but he has already demonstrated that he cannot build a team like MS did ... but then again if Brawn had not gone to Ferrari maybe MS would not have won anyway. The thing is, MS's performance in 96 made engineers want to work for him at Ferrari because it was so impressive in a not so good car. JB hasn't done that until he had a good car. Pete
I would agree with most of your points. Its just too early to make the call on Button, or Hamilton, or Vettel. None are another Michael Schumacher. They are all very good to excellent, but the only one of the three that in my guesstimate may come close in final career achievements is Vettel. It also sure seems that Button is doing this year what Hamiton did last year, taking a great chassis and winning. Having a great car sure makes the difference in F1. I think Button deserves the same credit that Hamilton received. Same with Vettel.
I said the above to illustrate a point - Personally, I believe MS to be the best ever (may have been different if Ayrton had lived, but again, we'll never know.) So, the only "reasonable" poll choice should be a simple "We'll never know". Who's to say JB, in the same situation, wouldn't have "rallied the troops" in the way MS did? Could he have turned a POS car into a winner in combination with the Todt/RB "dream team"? We do know that his driving style has long been compared to MS - Not many others have been. So, again, we'll never know. Cheers, Ian
I'm inclined to agree. But, we're constantly spouting herein about how important the car is - Plug *any* of 'em into the Ferrari during the "dream years" and they'd probably have won. Would anyone else have dominated the way he did? Probably not. Could any of 'em have "motivated" the team the way he did? Probably not. Turned the team round the way he did? Probably not. But, the point is, we'll simply never know.
well said...hmm I wonder who Eddie Jordan would choose to race his cars?? too wishy washy for me..but I guess it could be an option
Yep, There's plently more from where that came from, quite embarrassing IMO. We have a thread about JB & MS yet the usual suspects can't help themselves in lame attempt's to bash Hamilton in every thread. Thing is with such a mindset they get lost in it, rational thought is obviously unfamiliar territory. So for now all aboard the Vettel band wagon..
Oh come on Andreas, all I am saying is too many popped their "LH is going to be the next multiple WDC superstar" cherry too soon. It was not a weird post. LH got in a good car and beat Alonso ... clap clap, but look at JB now he is in a good car. I reserve my right to judge LH AFTER he has gone through the "my car is not so good" period. You and kraftwerk can continue to kiss his @rse if you wish. I see another Pom that is whinging about quitting F1, whinging about getting too much (negative?) attention, etc. It's like Nigel is back. JB on the other hand has my respect as a person, maybe not as a driver but as a non-whinging person. I still rate Alonso higher than LH, and both of them higher than both Ferrari drivers. I though do not agree that LH will win multiple WDC's, that completely depends on whether McLaren can and are allowed to build a competitive car again. Pete
Did you watch MS before 2001? Too many people judge MS after 2001, when his performances didn't need to be as brilliant as they were before 2001. It's not about winning in the best car but its about what you can do with a poor car. JB and LH cannot be compared to MS because they both have not been good enough in poor cars, and also both (especially LH) cannot build a team around them. LH is currently whinging and moaning, something we never heard MS do and not how to generate support in your team. A real pity because he can drive, but it takes a lot more than that to be a consistent winner. Both JB and LH are very, very fast in a good car. You cannot argue with that because that is what we have witnessed, especially with JB this year, and LH previously. Both are so so in a not so good car, but LH would have the upper hand there. Pete
Agree, but MS already demonstrated his ability in 96 when I believe the designer was still Barnard. I still believe 96 (and 94) was the best year for MS ... from a TV viewers point of view anyway. What he did with that 96 car was most impressive. Pete
Pete , My last attempt for what its worth....... It is not about a$$ kissing at all, like you make a case about Vettel, he is a great driver and it's clear to me has got the skill to become a multi WDC, I know that you know that, and yet it's still early to make that judgement on him. Likewise I can say your kissing his a$$ ,Yet somehow no matter WHAT LH has done it will never be enough to convince you, there will always be a Ahh but!..why this is the case is mind boggling to me, but your not alone on here. BTW I don't think Andreas is his biggest fan, I just believe he can recognize a great talent, and to be honest its heartening to read. I reckon you just resent the way he entered F1, and because he never cut his teeth in a back marker he is not worthy, other than that I'd rather not think. This year you have your wish the car is crap, and from what I have seen and looking at the WDC standings as I have posted else where, he is doing a great job, despite all the off track BS, discounting his points loss he would be 4th.. but with it 7th hardly a bad effort is it! I have been digging through old posts, and believe me Pete, you really wouldn't want me pulling them out... Last year IIRC, you claimed LH will be just another hyped up loser like JB, the current WDC leader...ermmm...
It takes multiple seasons before one can judge a driver as being "the real thing" or a multiple WDC contender. Too many have come on strong, stood in the spotlight, then spent the next few years looking for that elusive spotlight that does not appear again. It does not mean they are not excellent drivers, it means that the car they drive has too great of an influence on driver's championships. In other words, Hamilton may never win another WDC, likely because of his car. I have no idea either way if Hamilton will win another championship. That goes for Alonso, etc. I have no idea if Vettel will win a WDC, chances are really great, but so much can happen. I would say that bythe end of August, it will be clear if Button can win the WDC. But as I have said before, Button deserves the same kind of praise this year as Hamilton received before. At this time, and this could change, I see no difference in the two.
Another factor to bear in mind with these comparisons is this: Nicked from Korr's MS stats: M.Schumacher Impressive as they are, they will not be allowed to happen again whilst the powers that be remain. Anyway the move Button pulled on Lewis early in the last race, was LH/FA/SV standard IMO.. and won him the race, good car yes but it takes that bit % extra skill to drive it and make it stick. I don't subscribe to fact that any driver in F1 in the best car will always win.
