0858 to be auctioned

I didn't realize the P3's were all gone. I thought I'd seen a surviving yellow Francorchamp one in one of books/vids. Presumably this was a 412 or maybe a replica? Hmmm.

 

That sounds like 0850.

Best,
Dave

 

The P3's no longer exist as they were turned into different Tipos by Ferrari. 0844, 0848, and 0850 (The car you referred to) were converted from P3's to 412P's. 0846 was converted to a P 3/4. This may seem like a fine point but it's not. History is important and it remains silly and innacurate that Cavallino would list market prices for P3's as they no longer exist. It's even sillier as they also list market prices for 412P's which, as an aside, are different than the market prices they list for P3's.

Paul has pointed out several very interesting things about this new article and raised some very important issues. Firstly much in the same way that P3's no longer exist, P4 0858 no longer exists either. 0858 was converted by Ferrari to a 350 Can Am. It's original P4 chassis was used and modified as was it's original P4 engine but it is now a 350 Can Am not a P4 and simply remounting a P4 coupe body will not turn it back into one anymore than remounting a P4 body onto 0860 turned 0860 back into a P4.

0846 is a similar case. Ferrari converted 0846 from a P3 to a P 3/4. In that case Ferrari converted 0846's original P3 chassis to accept a different (P4) engine and (P4) gearbox. As an interim step in the process I believe they "muled" 0846's P3 gearbox by modifying it's inboard disk brakes etc. The modifications Ferrari did to 0846's original P3 chassis when they converted P3 0846 into P 3/4 0846 are clearly spelled out in 0846's Technical Data sheets as are the modifications Ferrari made when they converted P4 0858 into 350 Can Am 0858 in 0858's Technical Data sheets.

I agree with the FML article that P4 0856 is the only P4 existent today.

Moving on to Brands Hatch 1967 and building on Paul's excellent post.

Some earlier quotes from the ‘0846 Debate’ thread, back in January 2006:

The reason 0858’s spyder tail had undergone repairs, and had so much bondo on it, is likely to be connected with it’s mishap at Brands Hatch in ’67. Paul Hawkins had an off-track excursion, and banged the tail hard on the bank. Soon after, it blew off. He was sent back round again, to collect the tail section, which was hastily refitted in the pits.

My ex-0858 spyder rear bodywork (from 0854, now fitted to 0846) is clearly stamped 0858.

Doesn’t look much like the second-placed #6 car which finished the race in comparatively pristine condition, does it ?


Interestingly, a very similar photo has just been listed by Jack Habits on ************.com:

http://www.************.com/index.html?target=p_2926.html&lang=en-us

It is captioned as follows:

You may note that not only does the car carry race #8 on the door (not #6) but the helmet colors are those of Paul Hawkins – rather than Chris Amon or Jackie Stewart.
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Nicely parsed partial quotes, Jim.

 

I had a bit of help from a Master...

 

On the subject of 0858, read a great article in South African CAR circa 1969 about what sounded like anawesome dice between Hawkins in 0858 and David Piper in what I think may have been 0854 though the article is not clear. The cars were seperated but ruler lenght for over 20 laps, dare devil Hawkins overtaking in places where I didnt think over taking was possible(this round being at my home circuit Killarney).

What an amazing sight it must have been to see these two cars dicing so closely it was just a pity that 0858 was not painted traditional Ferrari red...

 

I think that IF I were in a position to bid on this car, and actually took the high bid, I would go against what most here have stated. I think the Can Am shape is ugly and a little duck-faced, while the P4 is ACHINGLY BEAUTIFUL! I would definitley pursue putting it back to it's P4 form. (Of course saving all of the Can Am parts.) I know some of the purist here balk at that, and also I think Jim is allowed to take the high road, considering what he has in the garage already.
Finally, all this being said I would also take it out and race it as hard as my, albeit limited, driving skills could push it. The only other consideration would be spyder or hard top, considering this one raced as both.
Just my 2 cents.

 

Paris could have a plastic surgeon sew up her hymen and you could 0860 0858 but as the article in FLM points out you'd simply have a 350 Can Am with a newly constructed P4 body mounted to it.

If you then go out and race her seriously, as opposed to parade racing her, you'll soon be owning "Grand Father's Axe".

If I were to wind up with her I'd refit her headlights, make her safe, and set off down the road.
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Good one Jim...
And she does look a little better (to me) with her lights in place.

 

I'd parade race her, as all historic cars should be, ie: 95% but never a do or die passing attempt.

But I'd never buy her anyway as simply doesn't pull my strings ...
Pete

 

The headlights, for some reason, make the shape look 'right' to me now.
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So Jim,

Do you have the plane fueled and a flight plan filed for the auction? You sound a bit beyond the casual speculation level.

Jeff

 

Sometimes we P4 replica owners get it 'right' .... even if in this particular case - it's technically wrong.

A Foreman P4 Can-Am: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31183184@N05/2923535299/in/pool-p4replica (400i V-12 powered too).

 

Those were added to 0858 for some reason along with a spare tire to make her eligible for a race that Cris Amon drove down under.

 

I completely agree. The CanAM car was a quick rebuild as a last minuite effort to get into CanAM racing and is not what the car should be remembered for. Yes keep the CanAM body and other modifications and make a nice transportable disply of them.. Then rebuild the car as close to original as possible.I am sure Piper and Glickenhaus would be thrilled to get involved in such a project. As Winston said " So much is owed by so many to so few" could be applied to the very few P3/4 cars . just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

George 0858 is a 350 Can Am. You can put a P4 body on it as was done to 0860 but it will never be an original P4 again. There is only one original P4 existent 0856 and that will be true forever.

 

Why on earth would you want to distort history by back-engineering a car to a previous state? I quite like the Can Am style, much representative of the line of thinking in the days it was actual, and rather beautiful too. Apart from that, it is what Ferrari made of it, apparently with some significant changes to the frame. If one desires a P4, and only one exists, try and buy it or build a replica. Don't turn the Can Am car into a bitsa!

 

The winglets on the lower front valance also add to the look and balance of the car and are missing from 0858 in it's current state as well.

 

Absolutely. I did it last year and would do so again this year if circumstances were different.

Cheers

 

Laughably, Yahoo/AP just posted a video interview with Dana Mecum and the Shelby Daytona Coupe that is coming to auction. They suggested that it may reach a price of $15 million (USD). Right.

 

Does that 15MM include the Brooklyn Bridge?

 

Maybe Dana thinks that it has a 440 six pack hemi in it. ;-)

 

I don't even think 0858 or 0714 will bring that number, much less a car that is at least half as valuable as these two Ferraris. I really wonder if these two cars will 'no sale' because the reserves will be set to high. I think I heard that the reserve for 0714 is 10mm-12mm Euros (I could be wrong on this). That's in the neighborhood of $13.5mm-$16mm. I could see that number a year and a half ago, but now???

 

To some collectors the Shelby Daytona Coupe would be higher on their list. Those coupes were a big part of the 60's motorsport history that Joe Average can relate to.

Now if 0858 had stayed as a P4 with the 2nd at Le Mans all good, but the factory converted it to a Can Am which meant that it got convincely thrashed from then on, except for a lone win in Australia. I'm pretty sure no Australian car enthusiast would be interested in bringing this car back to Australia, not when they could purchase a much loved LM or a F5000 or many hundreds of tin tops (saloon cars) that made history over here ... so who else wants it?

Surely no Can Am enthusiast would be interested?. There are always people that like odd balls though. So your market is people who view the car as a P4 and are into it's european history. But we have already discussed this ... it will never be a P4 again.

I honestly don't think this car, 0858, will sell, or even bid to over a couple of million. There are now so many more usable cars coming on the market, like GTOs, etc.
Pete

 

Some very valid points, my guess is that 0858 will be sold to a collector and put on display never to be driven in anger again but reading through this thread it seems thats all the car has been doing for the last 20 year: standing around being admired. I am wondering if the car wont find its way to a collector down my side of the world, as probably the first endurance Ferrari to run in cigarette branding...