Avoiding FUSEBOX "China Syndrome" MELTDOWN: Pre-emptive fix

I dont know when the switches went down to the console, but I always forget about the later cars being different. But why on earth these windows were ever power in the first place is beyond me. There was a thread a year or so back, we looked into the parts in the 288GTO door to put a window crank in the 308. IIRC its about $250 in parts. No more motor, no switches, but then the car isnt quite original either.

So on the later cars, you only have the motor wires going in and out of the door, the grounds are at the switch?

 

This is one of the less common but addressed issues I dealt with in the kit. According to my notes this has only happened on the Mondial variants and the 328's and I have not seen the failure on the TR / F40's. Ferrari made changes to the wiring harness to address some of the issues as time went on but managed to just move the problem around. The Mondial series had a fatal flaw that Ferrari just let be all the way to the end of the T series but managed to make changes to the 328's.....
For many years now I have dealt with this problem exactly as you are planning and it only ends up creating problems in other areas down the road. I have gone to the extent of soldering the wire directly to the terminal on the fusebox and reinstalling the plug in pieces or running the wire through the gutted pin position. It will work for a while but will shows its flaws in other areas in time. "I thought you already fixed my fusebox" is something I had to listen to a number of times before I decided to take this on and come up with a fix that would eliminate problems rather than move them around.

I still have a few of the plastic terminal connectors in stock but the last time I reordered some were NLA which is yet another reason I went this route.

Dave

 

I agree with Spasso on the early car wiring for the windows. I will look at my 77 GTB's this weekend to measure and document the voltage drops in the fusebox regarding the window circuits but the grounds and switch contacts have been the major issue in this circuit. My GTB's are not a good example to test as the grounds, contacts and window motors have already been dealt with and they operate very quickly. This will reduce the current draw and the resulting voltage drop in the box, likely showing little problems in that area. I will have to wait until a problem car comes in to do a proper test here.

Last evening John and I looked at his ATO type box that we did the mod's to on his Mondial T a few weeks ago. The current draw to the window is minimal and runs in the 5-6 amp range when everything else is right. I found no benefit to removing this circuit from the box as I did with the other major loads. That said, with the other loads removed as they are now there is more available current to operate the windows so this would explain John's working a little better after the mod's. One thing I noticed when John pulled the car up outside the shop door was the sound from the cooling fans. Sounded like a roar now and only stayed on for a few moments as they are now spinning so quickly.

To answer a few emails I have had regarding the design.
Early on I decided to forgo the want to make a very small, light, clean circuit board package when designing this kit. That would limit me to dealing with the currently known problems only. I decided to keep it modular in design so at any time in the future it could bemore easily updated. Its too late on these cars to have it available as a power source for the stereo installers, they have already hacked into other circuits for this. I offered to FNA many years ago to build a harness for every model just for the aftermarket guys to have access to proper power and grounds but they thought that would be condoning the installations and wanted no part of it. Future owners of the 360's will loathe this decission. For this reason the kit will remain modular in design allowing future upgrades to deal with these types of variables where failures cannot be predicted. This also allows me to modify the design while using standardized components between all the models where I can best deal with the limited space available to mount everything properly and out of sight.

Dave

 

The parts catalog doesn't even list part numbers for those connectors. Do you have part numbers for them? Do you order them from Ferrari?

I'm amazed the famous names associated with these cars. They tell me that Enzo was still involved with the development of the 328. And now, tracing through the wiring diagram, it seems that the exterior lighting was designed by Rube Goldberg.

It's pretty obvious there's a design bug when one of the two wires going to a connector pin is itself fatter than the contact area of the pin.

I could always run an inline fuse holder to a blade connector, plugged into the bottom of the F16 blade fuse spot, and bypass the edge connector completely, but I'd like to try to keep the car somewhat original. The recent rewiring was to remove 20 years of undocumented modifications (recovery system, ad-libbed stereo amp installs, etc.) -- baselining the car back to the original wiring diagram.

Even with mil-spec components, electrical connectors on a moving/vibrating vehicle tend to be "consumables". The problem with new "once and forever" solutions is that it takes time and a statistical base before you find if you've solved the problem or just moved it again.
(The "ghosts of engineering past" from the early days of my career keep coming back to haunt me. )

---
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with Vista.

 

Exactly the reason I left it modular in design, to deal with any future problems. I make no claims to know or be able to predict everything but I do know what most assuredly doesn't work and what has lasted for years. There are realistic expectations and there is perfection, surely I am not expecting the later. The real effort here is to make what does work look and fit very properly and is owner installable.

I have no reason to attempt to convince someone that there is a very real problem that goes well beyond a burned connector, they will find that out for themselves in time. I have been here before on a few other issues on a couple of models in the past. My attempt here is to provide an economical solution to a very real problem with a proven system that looks good and is fairly easy to install. This was only done after Dozens of failures were identified, analyzed and dealt with over a number of years on every model using this box, not one or two cars. Some will believe this, some wont. Its OK by me.

Dave

 

I have to add that I replaced all of the switches with new items from T Rutlands during this repair. This did make quite a difference.

 

I've been searching but haven't found a thread I ran across a couple of weeks ago that was discussing complete circuit board repairs by an outfit in the UK. One person had the board from their F40 repaired and fully tested for 250 GBP. That's less than half of what a new (NLA) item would cost. Anybody remember where and who?

 

One has only to look at the wire gauge going to the window switches on these cars and then look at the contact size in the switch (exactly the same point DGS was making regarding the wiring vs contact sizes) and it will show a trend. This trend has followed all of the Ferrari models until the 360's where Micro-Mini technology was implemented. With a few exceptions the 348/355's have been quite problem free.

It appears that the criteria used when designing these earlier systems was "when everything is running exactly right current draws in a single digit humidity enviroment with no addition aftermarket equipment and a fully charged battery in a new car with perfect grounds....." They did last quite a few years but very few miles by any judging standards.

Dave

 

Mercedes windows slow down after a few years too. I havnt seen a car yet that had switches built much better than the switches in the Ferrari, which are actually BMW switches, they are all borderline capable. The only thing better about the MB switches is the teminals. It all breaks down sooner or later, some sooner than others.

 

wow I am surprised that many ferraris have the same problem,

a friend of mine had a similar problem on his testarossa board few years ago
but only with the ac,

I did some soldering and and used single fuse holder I belive for him
to get it to work

that was my first ferrari work & was surprized how fragile that desighn was

 

I'm the other Steve with the Mondial-t coupe that was in Dave's shop and I can't begin to tell you how much of an improvement Dave's fix has made on my car. It starts better, which it was not alway doing before, idles exactly as it should, which it was not doing before, and it runs exceptionally well, which it was not doing consistently before. Dave improved the voltage from barely 11v to over 14v and wow what a difference.

I rang her out over 1000 miles through the glorious Colorado high country running over numerous 11,000 ft passes, hitting the twisties with gusto and running her up to a buck and a quarter on the long straights, where one could see for miles. She ran flawless and get this I averaged OVER 25 mpg for the entire mille miglia trip and believe me I ran her hard. Dave is a god (not THE God but a god nonetheless and I for one bow down to him).

Steve Sutley

 

If the switches are BMW switches, does anyone have the BMW part number?

Also what is Dave's contact info?

 

I've also found the Mondial is a different car with an upgraded fusebox. Before, the battery would die in only a few days if not disconnected. Since the new fusebox was put in it held a charge for a month while I was away, starting strongly where as before it required a trickle charger. The old boxes delaminate causing all manner of gremlins and slow current leaks.

Whichever of the current fusebox upgrades you choose, it is well worth it and makes an incredible difference.

If you are looking to buy a Mondial, I would factor getting one into your price and do it first thing -- it will save a lot of headaches.

 

Mine is in the Mail now.
(My 1981 Euro Mondial-8, came with a 1984 box.)
I got a New cover off of EbAy.

And, done.....!




Thank you,

GT Car Parts.
Phoenix, AZ

Edwardo

P.S. My cat has been locked out of, , HIS garage for 5 days now.
I was painting.
Thus, he is Over, ,,,
with the whole F-Car "Experiance."
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Thank you GT Car Parts....!

It's here.
My Brand new Mondial Fusebox.

Now to replace these crappy spring type connectors.
See where I started to burn.



Time for a BBQ
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Ya'....know the experience: when I finished my work, the boys had to check out the job.....hugs, skips the driver's seat, since now I rub my jeans all over it daily driving, and now they need replacing...
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I found that the window switches get oxidized over time, probably from arcing as they are used. A squirt of contact cleaner (I use TV tuner electrical cleaner from Radio Shack...good stuff!) often works wonders. I had a Mondial window that went from in-operative to slow using this technique. The "Window accelerators" that add relays in the doors make them go from slow to medium....which is not bad at all.

Paul, yes, the Mondial and the later 308s which have the window switches in the center console have a very long path to ground. The power comes into one pole of the switch and the ground is on the other pole (in the center console). Then the current is sent to/from the motor from there. So when you put the window up, you push the switch up and power has to go from the fuseblock to the switch to the window motor, back to the switch, then to ground. When you push the button down, it flips the polarity of the two wires out to the motor, but the current takes the same path. On the carb 308 with 2 switches in the driver's door, the switch that controls the passenger door has a really really long path!! That power has to go across the car twice!

Birdman

 

I have to chime in here with my little ol' trick to properly functioning windows. Believe it or not, no electricity involved. What I did was to simply replace the rubber u-channel in the front and back guides. The difference was astonishing! I have no idea why this helped - the old stuff looked fine, but somehow when I was fiddling around I got it in my head that the rubber was the problem. Ordered some non-original but also sanely priced new stuff from Bill at G.T. Car Parts (Thanks Bill!). Installed the new rubber with a little Wurth weather strip adhesive, fiddled and fiddled with the setup of the various points of adjustment, and BAM! no more issues. Believe me I had fiddled and fiddled with the adjustments with old rubber still in place, and the fiddling did not help until I put the new rubber in.

OK, well I did give everything a thorough dousing with DeOxit D5, but that's it. No other electrical stuff. The rubber made the big difference. Next on the "rubber" list is my Cab's rear windows. Not sure how to get in there though.

 

hello guys,
I am very happy to see this thread. This is what happened to me (3.2QV european cab).
The problems began when i saw that the fuel pump starts at every ignition keyturn. My mechanician told me it should be a new cable improvisation of ancient owner. This week the car is at the workshop. I asked him to fix the problem, but now, he answered me : after having correctly recable the fusebox, nothing is working !!
So he told me this is the classical problem of this car : the fusebox.
He proposes me to order a new one at ferrari store, but he recognizes that we will be delivered with a new "bull****" (bad designed well known product). I answered him ok, but here I can suppose there is a solution.
So my request is very simple : Where can I order this marvel ? Davehelms ? Is it fully operationnal ? How much ?
Russ, where did You find yours ? I have mailed gtautopartsandservice.com and ask them the same question.
The thread is very passionnated but I am in a hurry with this problem. Tomorrow I will take photos of the box and anything needed.
Thank You all,
You are the best

ps : another element : my car is equipped with a "cobra I think" alarm.
another problem of the car is that the battery falls down vey fast ( approx a week). My mechanician told me it is probably due to the alarm

 

Bonjour - Pas de probleme!

1. Yes - Remove the alarm system and all of its wiring. Remove any previous owner installed wiring.
2. Call GT Auto Parts at (1)-623-780-2200 and order an exchange upgraded fusebox. These have the new high technology reliable circuitry, and are about $800 or so exchange. You send them your old box, they send you a new one.
3. While doing this, inspect the connectors to the fusebox, especially the vertical oriented white connector on the most toward the center of the car (see picture in post #66 below).

Most all of your electrical problems will never return!

Bon Chance!

This will be the best Euros you ever spent on a Mondial.

 

thank you Russ You are the best,
I will call tomorrow.
Why sending him the old fusebox ? He needs it as model ? Sending him the box will cost me extra fee.
What about davelhelms product ? Not available ?
Thanks again, without You I would be lost,...
Olivier

 

there seem to be a problem with gtautoparts.
I have sent them a mail and have their negative answer. See following :

De : GT Auto Parts ([email protected])
Vous ne connaissez peut-être pas l'expéditeur.Autoriser|Marquer comme courrier indésirable
Envoyé : mar. 28/04/09 19:27
À : [email protected]

Sorry I do not have the box you are looking for.I belive there is a place in Arizona called GT Car Parts that may have something? Also there is a guy on the Ferrai chat boards name Dave Helms that from what I hear has come up with a fix for the fuse box problems. I hope this will help you. [email protected]://www.gtautopartsandservice.com

----- Original Message -----

HELLO,
My 3.2QV cabrio 1987 mondial has a severe breakdown probably due to the fuse box. I have been told on FerrariChat US that You purchase a new improved box. Could You advice me urgently about it, because the car is at the workshop and my mechanician told me he will order a new ferrari fuse box.
thank you,sincerly,Olivier

 

ok Russ,

It is GT car parts and not gtautoparts...
I have seen them in yellow pages and same number you gave me...
I just had the man on phone and he told me to make a mail.

 

There are many places called GT ___ Parts here. The number I gave you is for the correct one in Arizona, which does not have a website.
I have one of their new new boxes in my car and it works very well.

Edit
I am not sure what Dave Helms uses - I just know what has worked for me. They have rebuilt ones but need the old ones to rebuild more. I sent them my old box as well.