0858 to be auctioned

Although it would be nice, very unlikely. Monetary policies dictate a very hefty tax on any import (you may double the purchase price) putting the car here to never leave again.
The otherway is to import it in parts (still expensive) and put it together here, but then you can't race it anywhere as there will always be the danger of getting caught, at which point you still have to pay the taxes as well as a very hefty fine.
Third option is a temporary import, but you'd have to fly it out of the country once a year. I suppose with this particular car that wouldn't be a problem, unless a buyer would mothball it.

My guess is that it'll go to the USA to complete a collection or to someone who will race it in the historic series; it'll surely get you noticed!

How competitive would it be?

 

Hey, thanks for the quick lesson. I've since gone back to the books and your technical write-up of 0846 (I'm convinced) to get my layman's head around this family of tipos. I've got a smidge more respect for these beautiful machines (there was already quite a lot of respect) and a lot more understanding. I think it was 0850 I had seen and I believe Alain de Cadenet (sp) had incorrectly reviewed it as a "P3" in his Victory series as well. Hence, my misperception.

Have all the 412's, P3/4, P4 and Can Am 350's ever been photographed together in one place? It would be a very, very cool sight!!!

 

Not yet. The closest was at Le Mans in 1967 when 0844,0846,0848,0854,0856,0858,and 0860 made The Show.

Over the years a lot of misinformation about these cars has flowed and as Paul and I have pointed out some still does.

In the end it's the metal that talks.

0858 has sat for a VERY long time and making her safe to drive is a MAJOR undertaking. The idea that she can be "Restored" back into a P4 is silly and simply mounting a newly constructed P4 body back on her won't wish that true. She is what she is, what Ferrari converted her to in period, a 350 Can Am.
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You are one of the great authorities on the subject and the factory did the conversion to the CanAM car.I still would prefer the car as original with the CanAM body etc as a display.. I quote another F-Chatter who ends his posts with the following wisdom, "Man created God, the reverse has yet to be determined." just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

This hits it on the head..it's been stagnant all these years and to actually drive it would take buckets of money, over the buy in....IMO.

 

The chances of the Daytona reaching its supposed $15 million dollar reserve are very very low, the chances of #0714TR reaching a similar number is much much higher. For whatever reason a limited edition thoroughbred V12 Italian exotic car is worth much much more than a car built largely in the states using a rudimentary prodduction/ race derived V8. Who knows why ?, its a mystery to me.

But there is a way, back in the late 80's early 90's when we last saw a sell or die car collector mentality, and some cars sold for world record prices and others failed to reach their reserve, with no middle road. The issue then was some car auction companies, especially the companies that were on the margins or were expanding, was they would go to a vendor and say we will guarantee you getting $15 million for your car and would then make sure the car would appear to sell for a new record price. This ensures lots of publicity for the auction company. The cost may be worth it when considering this publicity might bring in lots of people to the sale in the first place and will hopefully get Mecum lots of future consignments in the $1m + category.
Stuff like this happened to a sale of a Bugatti Royale in Las Vegas (who would have guessed) I seem to recall. I am not suggesting this would happen here but it always made me think about some of the stuff that goes on, mystery phone bidders, chandalier bidding and other little games. Hell even if they dont sell the Daytona coupe it will get Mecum so much free publicity just having the car there it would be worth paying the vendor a couple of mil. just to enter the car and take it home again.....................................
I still dont see it selling.

Timmmmmmmmmmmmmmy

 

Yep. I see that now. She's a 350 Can Am and should stay as such.

 

Some Photo's that touch on this.
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Love it!

 

This is how I believe 0858 should look. For some, including me, this was near the end of the line of trully great Ferrari cars where pure beauty and the beast were so magnifcently joined. The CanAM version of this car is just no match for the original.. just one man's opinion. tongascrew

 

You could make it look like that but it would be with a replica body. I own 0858's original P4 spyder tail which as you can see is now mounted to 0846 and that's where it's going to stay. It's engine wouldn't be correct nor would it's chassis. You could remake it's chassis to be correct and you could remake it's engine and many other things to make it P4 but it would not be original. Restoring is different than re-making. We are restoring 0854's original coupe body and remounting it back onto 0854 which unlike 0858, was not converted by Ferrari in period into a 350 Can Am. 0854 has it's original unmodified P3/412P chassis, engine, gearbox and engine. It will remains original. If someone reconverts 0858 back into a P4, something that would take a lot of work, it will not be an original P4. FML is correct. There is only one original P4 existent 0856.

 

Information and photo's relevant to 0858's original spyder tail in this thread:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111267&highlight=0854+back+coupe&page=26

 

Very true but at the end of the day it will be up to the new owner to decide what to do with the car whether or not everyone agrees with it.

 

That's pretty cool, the migration of the 'scrap" parts from car to car.....well done!

If they can put the headlights back in it, (#0858) that would be better...

 

"Same as it always is"

 

Headlights, Turn Signals, Cooling Fans, and a through going through and you're ready for the road.

Here's where 0860's original P4 spyder body wound up and it's not on 350 Can Am 0860 currently re bodied as a P4.

(It's on David's 0900)
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Stamp on one of 0854's panels.
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Promo video of the car on RM's You Tube page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVKXFh0wqTY&feature=PlayList&p=51E528620D62DEA1&index=0

 

But sometimes said new owners bow to 'popular opinion', eh Jim.

 

I really doubt some of that history. I don't have any information on Monza but I agree with Paul that the new Brands Hatch History is wrong and I also doubt the new Le Mans History. My original Le Mans Scrutineering Documents clearly show that 0858 was 2 OA there. Even if the chassis plates of 0856 and 0858 were switched for that race my documents show the engine numbers as matching the chassis numbers and I can't see the engines being switched as well as the chassis plates but stranger things have happened.

I do want to be very clear that I think RM is being totally forthright here and is simply going by the Factory Race Records. I'm going over with my Le Mans documents and have directed them to what Paul pointed out. I think this is a fascinating riddle, wrapped in an enigma, swirling in the fog of time.

 

Sometimes they do.

Do you have any information or thoughts on Monza? I do think you figured out Brands Hatch.

 

I just looked at my original 1967 Le Mans Scrutinising Documents again.

The 21 Car is clearly listed as having engine block # 858

The 24 Car is clearly listed as having engine block # 0856

As this is directly from The Scrutineer's observations this is very important. The Rules at Le Man prohibit replacing engine blocks during the race and the Scrutineer had to inspect the blocks stampings and add his own stampings so that after the race he could confirm that the block had not been replaced during the Race.

I think this is very strong evidence as to which car was which at Le Mans in 1967.

 

If someone could get this car for million or less and spend what ever with David Piper or some other first class restorer with good knowledge of these cars to bring it back to the original P4 look I think if would, if done right, be accepted as a restored P4. There are so few of these magnificent machines that just starting a restoration with an original P$ chassis would give it a legitimate start as the real thing though rebuilt and restored.Some comments by members of the P3/4 club would be interesting. just one man's opinion tongASCREW

 

Not quite right: these forms were filled at the works several weeks before the race by a delegate of the CSAI. So if for some reason another car had to be sent to Le Mans, identities were changed. As you said previously, stranger things happened. Incidentally this also happened with the winning TR in 1960, 0774 running as "0772".

Therefore an inversion of identities for Le Mans is quite possible, unlike the common wisdom.

Cheers.

 

Your first assumption is a pipe-dream, and the proposal what to do with the car in such event would be a significant distortion of Ferrari history.
IMO, those who want to retro-engineer the car back to P4 spec and build a new body should rather focus on a nice replica. This car will never be a true and original P4 again, and right now it is a true and original car as it was campaigned by the factory. Wether that was successful or not to me would be of minor importance.

I guess that in general historic racing the car may prove to be uncompetitive against (much modified?) McLaren Can Am cars, but in the historic challenge it could overcome that dis-advantage?