0858 to be auctioned

Tom

I believe these documents were filled out at Le Mans by the Marshall who Scrutinised the car at Le Mans. They have hand written notations on them. They include his hand notated race journal. They include his race program. They include his daily Le Mans newspapers. The Providence is his widow. These documents clearly show engine 858 being in the 21 car.

Also note that these documents have the correct engine number for Ford MK-IV J6 the #2 Car. Note that in this photo J6 was waiting to be scrutinised but did not yet have it's number painted on.

They could be wrong but I don't think they are.

Best
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Agree totally.

 

Napolis,

We are not talking of the same document. The one I am mentioning is titled "Fiche de cylindrée" and aims to prove the capacity. Of course, once in Le Mans, the car has to conform to this form. I regret I don't have it for 0858 and 0856 but the older one attached may help to explain the practice.

You are talking of the forms filled by the scrutineers at Le Mans. Of course these reflect the "re-identified car".

Best
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Here's the important point. Ferrari certainly could have switched the chassis plates before sending them to Le Mans but the documents I have which were filled out at Le Mans while looking at the cars noted the engine block numbers and the stampings thereon. Le Mans regulations forbid changing engine blocks so this is why this pre/post race scrutinising was made.

If the identities of 0856 and 0885 were switched before sending them to Le Mans both the chassis plates and the engine blocks would have to have been switched. Could have happened but it's a bit of work for what and why?

What about Brands Hatch? Look over Paul's posts and my photo's of 0858's tail now mounted to 0846. Look at the condition of the tail on the second place finisher at Brands. Look at the Helmets as Paul pointed out. The Catalogue makes hay of the statement that the second place finish clinched the 1967 Championship and the car that finished second was 0858. I think Paul is right and that the second place car was 0860.

The New Monza History, if correct is Major. Not as big as moving from calling my 0846 a Replica to a Reconstruction to a Resurrection but it's big.

Best

 

Why the "much modified" comment? ... McLaren's destroyed this car back in the day with like a 200+ hp advantage and God knows how much extra torque ... + much more sophisticated chassis (proper monocoque) + rear wing = no contest.

Pete

 

I believe his comment is that there are some cars running in vintage that are using technology that simply wasn't available back in those days. Bruce Mclaren was reported to have not understood why the sports racers of the time were cornering faster than the F5000 cars that were basically the same suspensions and weight distribution (it was that the SR cars were generating downforce and the F5000's weren't) and now it is to us, obvious. We know now how to generate a lot more downforce and some folks are doing it in subtle ways that don't involve big changes, but make the cars a lot faster than they were in the late 60's. In a similar manner, although a Chevy is still a Chevy, you can make a lot more power today in one than you could in the late 60's.

Taking a car that wasn't really competitive back then and running it in exactly the same form as it was run then in vintage racing today wouldn't be pretty.

 

Couldn't agree more. I took a ride in a freshly restored Lola T165 in the 90's and the owner explained to me (as we blasted off) that the Chevy V8 "blew the pump off the dyno at 995 HP". Having driven numerous 500 HP road cars around that time, I was not at all inclined to disagree with his low-end estimate.

Pete, I think you're correct about the historical comparison. However, today it's preposterous to consider- if only for the advances in engine-building for V8's in the last 35+ years.

Best,
Dave

 

Why do owners do this? ... such a shame and completely kills historic/classic racing. Is the need to win so bad for some they simply don't get enough from having to drive a piece of history that most of us would give their left nut to have a turn at.

The organisers/FIA, etc. need to get real strick and ban modified cars. Cars should be 100% period ... there are plenty of classes or race series' for crazy modified race cars.

I wish they would put as much effort into learning to drive ...
Pete

 

Pete,

Others have ansewered your question for me more adequately than I could have myself

On your last post, I totally agree with you, but we're going way of subject here.

 

I guess I have a little of the "Kermit The Frog" pipe dreamer in me. Technicly you are correct. Just remember there is a P3/4 out there rebuilt from the mangled pieces of a crashed/written off chassis. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

While true that has nothing to do with 0858 which is a very original 350 Can Am no longer an original P4. Putting a replica P4 body on 0858 it will not change that fact. The only original P4 still existent is 0856 and that will remain true for all time.

0846 is what it is because it was scrapped by Ferrari and Ferrari never never sold the chassis remains of 0846 to anyone, they threw them out. As FML has pointed out I have strong claim to have "Resurrected" 0846. (Brought Back From The Dead using the chassis remains of 0846 and other original parts of 0846)

350 Can Am 0858 never died. It has absolute continuous providence. Your idea that Totally Original 350 Can Am 0858 can magically be turned back into Totally Original P4 0858 by mounting a Replica P4 body onto it and modifying it's chassis today is silly. There are those who perfer Series I 250 GTO's. Stripping an original Series II 250 GTO body off of an original Series II 250 GTO and mounting a Replica Series I 250 GTO body onto it would turn it back into an original Series I 250 GTO? I don't think so.

Your Pipe Dream would be like converting The Breadvan back into a SWB. Not something I would do.

 

I've heard on the grape-vine that Classiche have stated that they will not turn it back into a P4. To have Classiche certification it has to be as it was when the factory sold it (except in exceptional circumstances). It was sold as a 350 CanAm, so any conversion would be outside of classiche and would not be certified.
Nathan

 

Very interesting.

However, as has been said here already, the buyer will run this car as he wishes, acceptable to us or otherwise. There is more than one person posting here who has taken a car and made it into something different which is what they want so that same prerogative remains with whomever gets to own 0858.

 

True, but what does it say about the value of Classiche Certification if the owner of such a car is so willing to (in effect) throw it away?

 

Maybe Classiche would like it if someone did make the (unfortunate) change. Then later they can sell the restoration back to the correct Can Am 350.

Jeff

 

My preference is for historical preservation be it buildings, cars, even people (not a great fan of plastic surgery). Of course, everyone is free to to do what they wish and I certainly understand that there can be more than one worthwhile option in any given situation.
This is the first favorable thing I've heard (albeit unsubstantiated as I understand it) regarding Classiche.

 

Good question!

 

Did this car race in Australia?

 

Yes, Scuderia Veloce raced it. Chris Amon and a local Australian drove it. Ripped it's floor off at some race, due to cutting a corner too hard.

Pete

 

Going by my books it raced a few times in Australia.
Bill Brown/Jim Palmer of New Zealamd
Chris Amon raced it a few other times.
i know my father has photos of the 2 x 12 hour races must go over and get 'em and post 'em up.

 

Napolis,

Another distortion of the common wisdom: can't you read 0856 on the note pad of the Ferrari guy with Scarfiotti at Spa ?

Regards
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The same goes for many of the (race)cars, and is widely accepted. A good few well known and very expensive cars would disappear from the scene if that practice were to be deemed off-limits. Apart from that, how many mangled cars/remains were already re-built during their factory racing career?
This though is a different case. There is an original car as built and campaigned by the factory. How many times haven't we seen the same thing happen in Ferrari racing history? Re-use of a chassis, engine, most of a car etc. to build a new racecar? Turning it back into a P4 will destroy an IMO stunningly beautiful and important car. Hands off!

 

As Mark said:

Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong.

http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1967.html#4

I do believe from my personal investigation and discussion with Richard Attwood at Goodwood that the information on 0854 is correct.

For all of you P 4 Experts: What's the lever marked N/R?

 

Reserve tank?

 

Herein may lie the the key to part of this mystery.

Note the dates of Monza and Spa in 1967. If 0856 was at Spa as Tom's photo's show Ferrari thought it was, then it's likely as FML said it wasn't at Monza a few days earlier winning the 24 of Monza.

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0858.330P4.htm