0858 to be auctioned

That would be correct.

Here's another one.

What is the purpose of the A C valve?
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Were Hawkins and Walker based in South Africa, or partially so? The car must have spent a considerable amount of time here.

And look at the great racing calendar back in the days for this part of the world! How things have changed.

 

Hi Jim,

You're a Knopfler connaisseur too! How nice!

 

I didn't say I am Jesus, Christ! So Jesus must be Czech.

By chance he did not take the Alfa TZ bible into consideration.

 

As there were 3 P4's, one must have driven as well at Monza as at Spa.

 

Hi Boudewijn
Not quite sure what the point is here, but IIRC there were only 2no. P4s at Monza, and 2no. 412Ps.
So, 2 cars at Monza and 1 car at Spa = 3 cars?
Nathan

 

Here are copies of the Monza and Spa race details from Ferrari.

Jay
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At Monza: 0844 (#9), 0848 (#7), 0856 (#3), 0858 (#4)
At Spa: 0850 (#11), 0854 (#10), 0858 (#9)
At Le Mans: 0844 (white #25), 0846 (#20), 0848 (#22), 0854 (#23), 0856 (#24), 0858 (#21)
At BOAC: 0854 (#9), 0856 (#7), 0858 (#8), 0860 (#6)

Let us take things simple, just like Ferrari did back in those days!
I'd really like to buy the Monza winner/BOAC second place car but 0858 isn't that one.

0858: second to 0856 at Monza, second to Ford at Le Mans. That's a more than perfect history given the fact that all these cars have a short history!

 

#21 was 2nd at Le Mans. Can anyone make sense of this conflicting information?
And as both 0856 and 0858 went to LM then what reason would there be to swap the chassis numbers anyway?
Nathan

 

Jay
Many thanks for posting those sheets.
Nathan

 

There was also a Le Mans 4 hours race as well as a testing session (where for instance 0844 had black racing number plates which changed into white for the 24 hours).

 

I agree that this is likely correct especially with the confirming evidence of Tom's photo of 0856 at Monza.

What are your thoughts regarding Le Mans (21 Car?) and Brands?

I still don't understand how the Le Mans Scrutinizing Documents could show engine # 858 in the 21 car unless it was 0858 except if the engines were swapped as well as the chassis plates.

I also think Paul's post and 0858's Spyder Tail with evidence of damage which we repaired before mounting to 0846 really point to 0860 having finished 2OA at Brands.

Best

 

Tom's photo is in reference to 0856 at Spa.
Le Mans #21 was 0856, which I said before, the chassis tags were switched.
Brands Hatch #7 was 0856.
I have Factory documents showing numerous motors in 0856 at different events. All of them were undoubtedly stamped 0856 on the main pad, with an additional nr. (1,2,6) to differentiate which motor was used.

What has the Ferrari factory given you for the history and motor usage of 0846?

Best regards,
Jay

 

Jay

If 0856 was the 21 car at Le Mans why do the original Scrutinising Documents prepared at Le Mans in June 67 clearly show engine # 085 in the 21 car? Were 0858's and 0856's engines also swapped to match the swapped chassis plates? Is this what Ferrari's records show? My original Le Mans documents also clearly show engine # 0856 was in the 24 Car. As Nathan pointed out both cars were shipped to Le Mans. Why were 0858's and 0856's complete identities swapped before the cars were sent to Le Mans?

Tom's photo is Spa. I mentioned because I think it makes Ferrari's records about the Monza winner being 0858 look correct and the official Spa records seem wrong:

http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1967.html#4


FML letter says that Ferrari told the owner of 0856 that 0856 wasn't the Monza winner and that it wasn't even at Monza.
Do you know when did they told him? Do you agree with Ferrari on this? Does the owner 0f 0856 agree with Ferrari on this?

Do you agree with Post 103 that 0858 was the #8 car at Brands?

As for 0846, in writing Ferrari told me that 0846 was scrapped by them. (Not Destroyed) They also added that I shouldn't have used parts they threw in the trash bin to Resurrect a car but allowed that these were glorious pieces of history.

Luca discussed this with Andrea on the day he first saw P 4/5. He asked Andrea what the fuss about 0846 was and Andrea gave him the short version. Andrea not only had inspected 0846 but had fully studied the car and my pdf.

Andrea told me that Luca said: "You mean we threw it out and he found it and resurrected it?" Andrea told me he answered: "Basically yes." Andrea told me Luca then responded: "That's funny." and told Andrea that he agreed that P 4/5 deserved to be an officially recognised Ferrari and so badged.

Best!

 

in addition. as everyone knows. Ferrari cast blocks with no's 1 thru 10 or more depending on how many they needed. they didnt always change the whole engine, just restamped the block. noticed attached photo with engine number after many changes.
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I'm not sure what this proves re 0858/0856 at Le Mans. Do you think the identities of the cars were switched before shipping them to Le Mans in 67 keeping in mind that my Scrutinising documents clearly show at Le Mans the 21 car had engine 058 and the 24 car had engine 0856. I understand that the identities could have been switched by Ferrari before Le Mans but once again why?

How do you feel about the FML/RM Auction new History showing 0858 not 0856 as the Monza winner?

How about the FML/RM Auction new History showing 0858 as 2 OA at Brands?

Hope you are well!

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=932578&stc=1&d=1241563191

The Official Ferrari 1967 Monza document that jdfelter included in his post just above your post clearly and incontrovertibly indicates that 0858 (Bandini/Amon) indeed was the overall winner, with 0860 (Parkes/Scarfiotti) finishing second, etc.

 

That document does state that. What are your thoughts on Le Mans and Brands?

 

The rear of #0860 at Le Mans and the same rear of the Stewart-Amon car at the BOAC 500: PROVA MO-31.
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Could the rear bodies have been travelling between the cars as well? I can't see any good reason for it other than if an identity is swapped, and the PROVA MO XXX registration had to go with that?

 

Apologies for taking up this space, but my post 858 should go in this thread.

 

At Le Mans 0860 was a coupe. At Brands a Spyder so that doesn't mean anything. The PROVA #'s were swapped at random.

The Prova Registration didn't specify a chassis number it was simply a Manufacturers test plate painted on.

To me Paul is correct and the metal proof is 0858's Brands Hatch Spyder Tail now mounted to 0846 that showed evidence of having come off and left rear damage unlike 0860's which didn't.

 

please note. one is a coupe and the other is a spyder

 

I know, but at the BOAC 500 all 3 were converted into spiders.

 

Here's the race. You can very clearly see which car's tail flew off of.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1393168345775539215