Please help! 360 Engine failure after main dealer belt change. | Page 4 | FerrariChat

Please help! 360 Engine failure after main dealer belt change.

Discussion in '360/430' started by dkilka, Apr 24, 2009.

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  1. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    289
    Australia
    #76 dkilka, May 4, 2009
    Hi Brian,
    I have been back to Barbagallos and inspected the variator again. I have cleaned and degreased it and I have found the code you speak of. It's 4A which from what you guys have told me means it is a August 2004 unit. This ties in with the info I obtained from Ferrari UK as they said the recall was performed in Aug 04. I think this will also show that it is the new type variator that has failed! Interestingly it would appear to have both a green dot and a red dot.
     
  2. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    289
    Australia
    #77 dkilka, May 4, 2009
    Thanks Jim,
    I am not a person that buys a car like this and cannot afford to run and maintain it correctly. It is a weekend car pure and simple and I do not use it every day. I use it on a weekend as a special treat. I have always maintained it on schedule at the main dealers and anything the car has required it has always received.

    Normally the situation would not be this bad and I would have some spare "emergency" money. But please note that my family and I have just emigrated to Australia and with all those associated costs (House, wifes car, shipping costs, furnature, taxes etc, etc) I simply do not have much left over! I budgeted for the car prior to shipping it out with me in January and had it at the main dealer for a full 30k service, belts etc and also replaced the main crank oil seals. The car was then collected from the dealer after the service and put straight on the boat to Australia.

    This is a failure on a part that was in-itself replaced under warranty to correct a known failure area. To me Ferrari have not done a great job in addressing the issue in the 1st place if the "upgraded" replacement parts are now failing (which I now have numerous confirmations that this IS the case).
     
  3. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    289
    Australia
    #78 dkilka, May 4, 2009
    Thanks PAP,
    They have not done that yet. I have asked them to remove the head and take a look, will take it from there. I think it will definately have bent valves etc. The guy at the garage said a 360 in Melbourne has just had exactly the same issue (variator failed) and that needed 2 pistons and con rods, and almost all the valves! That cost $25K in parts! Don't know what the situation was and if Ferrari offered any assistance (I doubt it though).

    Thanks for the offer. I way well take you up on it! I would not want you to work for nothing though and hence would have to still wait until I have saved up some cash.

    D.
     
  4. rossocorsa

    rossocorsa Karting

    Jan 29, 2004
    236
    UK
    Full Name:
    Colin
    #79 rossocorsa, May 4, 2009
    Does all this mean that a variator change should be included in the 3year cam belt replacement service.....?Is anyone out there already doing this as a matter of course?
     
  5. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    99,341
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    #80 PAP 348, May 4, 2009

    Too easy mate!! :):)
     
  6. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    289
    Australia
    #81 dkilka, May 4, 2009
    I do not think anyone is doing this now. But I do know that these things are starting to fail so if you ask me they should certainly be done with the belts!!! If mine had been done with the belts I would not be in this mess right now. The way I see it you would be stupid not to replace the variators with the belts at every belt service. If I end up keeping the car I will certainly make sure that they are replaced at every future belt change!!!
     
  7. rbf41000

    rbf41000 Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2005
    676
    Charlotte NC
    Full Name:
    Russell
    #82 rbf41000, May 4, 2009
    Not suggesting anything but what is the cost of the variators and how much labour is involved.
    Some people seem to have a problem with paying for a belt change, now add in new variators and who knows.

    Russell
     
  8. rossocorsa

    rossocorsa Karting

    Jan 29, 2004
    236
    UK
    Full Name:
    Colin
    #83 rossocorsa, May 4, 2009
    Variators run to 500 GBP + tax in uk.....exhaust cams have to be removed and clamped in a vice for removal and installation of the variators which is not a pretty sight....unless there is a new/better method to support the camshaft this has always been an area of concern to me that the camshaft could be damaged during installation/removal of the variators..
     
  9. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    99,341
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    #84 PAP 348, May 4, 2009
    Probably why no one wants to replace them! :eek::eek:
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,003
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #85 Rifledriver, May 4, 2009
    Camshafts are often changed with the variators because they can be near impossible to remove. There is very little to hold the cam by and the tool for grabbing the variator is a piece of junk. I have seen several cams damaged trying to get a variator loose. It is usually best to decide which to save and cut the other off.



    That new variator date code is January 04. It is one of the new ones. I have not heard of any of the new ones failing but if they are it will not be a secret long and Ferrari will need to address it. I will say most of these types of failures are not a parts issue so much as an installation problem.
     
  11. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2005
    4,208
    Full Name:
    chris
    #86 cf355, May 4, 2009
    What the cost of a camshaft and variator?
     
  12. paulie_b

    paulie_b F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    Jan 13, 2003
    6,825
    Jupiter, FL
    Full Name:
    Paul Bianco
    #87 paulie_b, May 4, 2009

    I have the Technical Information from Ferrari and it states that regarding Timing Variator replacement ....."extending the service concerned to all 360 model cars whose engine number is below 60796".
    Do you know if it was ever done?
    If you send me a PM and your email address I will send it to you.
    Good luck with this.
     
  13. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2005
    4,208
    Full Name:
    chris
    #88 cf355, May 4, 2009
    Thought I would answer my own post.....with a quick visit to Ricambi....
    the variator is $417.19(per side) and the cam shaft is either $1166.11 or 1202.16 (depending on which cam) per side.
    This is not as bad as I thought it would be.
     
  14. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    289
    Australia
    #89 dkilka, May 4, 2009
    Thats a great deal better than the bill I am currently faced with!!!!!!

    I would seriously advise everyone on here to get their cars variators done with the belts. I would not want this to happen to anyone else out there.

    I will also be ending my long standing association with Ferrari dealers after the car is repaired. Throughout this ordeal I have discovered that what I thought was better service and knowledge is definately not the case. The Ferrari dealer who changed my belts (relieving me of 3500 GBP) has refused to even supply me discounted parts!!!!
    Having spoken to plenty of 3rd party, non dealer specialists who have offered free advice and support I get the distinct impression that they offer not only a cheaper service. But they also offer a better service as they have a genuine love for the cars and take a pride in what they are doing. As opposed to a Ferrari dealer who is only interested in the financial aspect.

    BTW.
    (The cam required is the exhaust cam)
     
  15. rossocorsa

    rossocorsa Karting

    Jan 29, 2004
    236
    UK
    Full Name:
    Colin
    #90 rossocorsa, May 6, 2009
    Where are you at with the damage/parts list?
     
  16. NbyNW

    NbyNW F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 3, 2007
    4,045
    South Dakota / Maryland
    #91 NbyNW, May 6, 2009
    Keep us posted on your repair work.

    Anyone have an answer on removing the interior firewall cover? Mine is leather with nothing obvious on how it comes off.

    Ray
     
  17. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    #92 GCalo, May 6, 2009
    As I read the W/S manual you have to remove the seats, slightly lift and pull up on the trim piece under the window to remove the trim piece, pull out on the L & R trim pieces, remove the seat belts under the side trime pieces, remove the mount on passenger side there for a "baby seat" if present, remove the netting, remove the two removable panels that cover the ECU's & equipment behind the seats at about floor level, and start pulling on the carpet easily from the bottom up.
     
  18. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    289
    Australia
    #93 dkilka, May 6, 2009
    Barbagallo are pulling the head as we speak. I should know the damage by early next week.
     
  19. Frari

    Frari Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
    1,194
    brisbane australia
    Full Name:
    tony
    #94 Frari, May 7, 2009
    So sad to hear of your problem, I would suggest that once you have all the relevant problems nailed to ask Barbagallo to contact the Ferrari Network to see if ,due to the failed "new "variator that they may contribute something towards repairs. If I were the manufacturer of such a car part with this problem I would want the part back so that I could determine why it failed so that I did not run the risk of further problems and class action. If it was a one off well and good but if it is possible that this is still a problem achilles heel then they should advise replacement at each Cam belt change. The information your parts can provide can assist in solving many similar problems in the future., I will keep fingers crossed for you.
     
  20. NbyNW

    NbyNW F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 3, 2007
    4,045
    South Dakota / Maryland
    #95 NbyNW, May 7, 2009
    Thanks, and wow. More involved than I was expecting.
     
  21. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    289
    Australia
    #96 dkilka, May 7, 2009
    Thanks Tony,
    I would agree with you! But I do not think Ferrari are at all interested in people with cars that are out of warranty. Barbagallo have already contacted Ferrari and they have refused any assistance at all!!!!!! Barbagallo agree that I have a case (as you do) and are going to try again but I am not holding out much hope!!!

    I am very dissapointed by Ferraris attitude.
     
  22. rbf41000

    rbf41000 Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2005
    676
    Charlotte NC
    Full Name:
    Russell
    #97 rbf41000, May 7, 2009
    If the variators were changed in 2004 the new ones have lasted for 4 - 5 years.
    Sorry to sound like I am on Ferraris side but these have lasted longer than the original warrantee period and things do wear out, thats why all unlimited milage warrantees have a time frame also.
    I do think its poor form for Ferraris to have a weak component that when in failure mode it takes most of the top end with it.
    I wish you good luck with any corporate help you get but I would not hold my breath.

    Russell
     
  23. ferrariKP

    ferrariKP F1 Rookie

    Jul 29, 2004
    3,994
    BKK/ LOS
    Full Name:
    Kenny
    #98 ferrariKP, May 7, 2009
    Sorry to hear this....

    Wish you all the best esp. great come back of your beloved car!
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,003
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #99 Rifledriver, May 7, 2009
    I share your feeling but after a couple of decades of experience with them I would expect nothing else.
     
  25. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,367
    socal
    #100 fatbillybob, May 7, 2009
    Back several decades when the 348 was the hot thing I reported to Ferrari with pictures about how my gearbox ate itself because someone at the factory did not even attempt to stake the lockring on the clutch shaft. I also reported that an FNA dealer mechanic working on 348C at the time knew of other 348Cs with this problem. I was very polite but grew up with ferrari circa 308carb car and knew what to expect from them. Well true to form I got exactly what I expected which was to be "utterly" and "totally" and "completely" ignored without even the acknowledgement of my existence on the planet. How did I respond? Well like a complete and total idiot since I still own a Ferrari several iterations from the 348. They know they have us by the B@lls and they are twisting them every chance they get.
     
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