0858 to be auctioned

I've heard similar whispers but this would be one for the record books. As a well known Ferrari Historian emailed me tonight:

"that'd be extra stupid".

 

Maybe Obamao will buy it. He's extra stupid

 

Not quite 'blank'. Jim .... see my previous post #217.

Agreed, Jim !

 

Not strictly true. The fibreglass panels used on the first P4 replica, built by Bob Norwood were originally supplied to Rob Thurman, by David Piper. They were taken off moulds made from (412P) #0854's original bodywork. Bob Norwood bought the project from Rob Thurman. The car was based on a shortened Ferrari BB chassis, and has been well documented on this forum in quite a few threads, including the 'Bob Norwood is building the P4 again' thread. It is currently for sale at VDV Grant in Brussels.

See: http://www.vdvgrant.be/sale.php? Go to page 3, and: 'Ferrari 512 BB rebodied P4 by Norwood'.

Fibreglass panels taken from the same David Piper (412P) moulds were used to form the buck for the Noble P4 bodywork.
At least 10 Noble P4's (built by Sienna Cars) were shipped out to Japan, imported by Marukatsu, in the late 80's, and early 90's.

I have lots of knowledge about P4 replicas. I run the world-wide register for them. So I make it my business to know about them.
I already have 14 various P4 replicas logged in Japan (not all of them Noble P4's either), and am currently on the track of another.

 

I do my best.

 

Check out the script on the front wing of this Noble P4 berlinetta, photographed in a display at the Okayama round of JMLC in 2006.

See: http://www.flickr.com/photos/scivi/286790326/in/pool-p4replica

(Another photo of same car in a recent Japanese blog entry: http://koyapop.bbs.fc2.com/?act=reply&tid=2717495 - and scroll down.)

Now let me get this straight. #0858 was the 2nd-placed 1967 Le Mans P4 - Right ?

 

I agree. I have been in contact with a friend if mine in Japan, a well known Ferrari collector, and he hasn't even heard of Kuzami, and if there was a P4 in Japan then he would know.
Nathan

 

Many articles appear as a prelude to the sale of another car: could this be the case? I simple way of trying to manipulate the market a little in someone's favour?

 

Interesting Photo and likely the car referred to in the article. I hope he didn't pay 14MM e for that one.

As for your last question I think it is. Later today I'm heading over with my original Le Mans Scrutinising Documents which over the years have answered a question or two.

"Which car won Le Mans in 67? J6 or J5?"

"Did 0846's P3 FI stay with her chassis when she became a P 3/4?"

"What engine # was in the 21 car in 67?"

I'll be at the Factory on Friday, the Test Track on Saturday, back at the Factory to see the MM cars pass through and at the Auction on Sunday. Anyone who's around please say hello!
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Jim,

Might you be protesting a little too much? By virtue of the other (wonderful) cars you own, you clearly have a dog in this debate (not, I hope, fight). The more P3's, P3/4's, P4's there are, they less rare (albeit, not much less) they all are.

Taking your argument to an extreme, one might conclude that the car that raced at LeMans no longer exists. It is as gone as if it was destroyed. The only material thing the car being sold by RM has in common with the car that ran LeMans is the chassis number and some metall it is affixed to, so beyond that 858 cannot claim LeMans history. If that is wrong, and the owner of 858 can say he has one of the LeMans cars (which is my opinion), then why shouldn't he restore (in the literal sense) it in good conscience to that configuration. He can always save the 350 CanAm parts and put it back. In my view, the 858 that ran LeMans is not gone and the "modified" 858 that ran CanAm is not the only proper variation. It certainly is the most original in terms of parts (for all we know), but restoring the car to its original as-raced form does not make it any more or less of a P4 (with one caveat expressed below).

Race cars seldom have all (or often) most of their original bodies - unlike road cars. Whether a race car is more or less original because panels were replaced 40 years ago or 5 years ago, is kind of metaphysical (is it the same metallurgy, were the original bucks and forms used, were the mallets orignal or original design, who wielded them - gets a little silly). The same is true of motors and other components subject to high risk of destruction in ordinary use. Once you replace a chassis, however, you get into the "grandfather's ax" realm. As I understand it (and I claim no independent knowledge), the chassis of 858 qua LeMans was modified, not replaced, when it became 858 Can Am.

Assuming the reserve is met (which could be a real challenge), whoever buys the car, you or anyone else, can in good faith claim ownership of both 350 CanAm 858 and P4 858 and (because the chassis modification may not be that material) use it appropriately in either configuration. If this is right, and of course reasonable people may disagree, 858 could merit a premium, rather than discounted, value (which is what I think your reasoning would dictate).

 

A premium? To the only original P 4 existent today 0856?

Ferrari made 0858 what she is today, a 350 Can Am with a
wonderful prior history as a 330 P 4.

That's something IMO worth preserving.

LS could convert 0856 into a 350 Can Am and who ever
winds up with 0858 could convert her to a 330 P 4.

I wouldn't.

 

+1

 

+2

 

How much will 0858 make this Sunday? Let's have a bit of fun and see who gets nearest to the hammer price.
Nathan

 

$9,752,318,58

 

ask mm.

 

I don't know if there is a reserve or not. If there is a reserve, it won't sell......

 

Am guessing it wont sell and if it does no more than $6.5mil

 

If no reserve, I'm going to chime in with $12 Mil

 

No Sale. But I'm bearish; I also think the 250 TR will NS along with the SWB Cal Spyder (reserve is too high for the California).

 

What if Ferrari Classiche did the conversion back to a P4 and gave it a Classiche cirtificate. Where would you come down on that? just one man's "question" opinion tongascrew

 

To any of you going to the auction to acquire this beauty, I wish you good luck and happy bidding! I hope the car will find a deserving home.

 

No sale at 6M Euros

 

No sale at $5.1M