REPORT: FIA will reject teams conditional applications

Ya, but the ACO is ultimately controlled by the FIA


A better chant would be Bernie and Max can bite my sacks

 

(lilmiting the amount of new wings is proposed - Red Bull must be unhappy about this as they have wings)


Domenicali has reiterated the FOTA teams' position, despite their conditional entries to the 2010 championship (Getty) » More PhotosSome observers saw Friday as an easing of hostilities, but in truth dissident teams are no closer to accepting plans for budget capping in Formula One.

Stefano Domenicali, team boss of the sport's longest serving and most influential and important competitor Ferrari, clarified on Saturday that FOTA is "absolutely not" willing to accept Max Mosley's budget cap concept.

With the exception of suspended member Williams, all the existing F1 teams on Friday lodged entries for next year's world championship.

The FIA, however, will not automatically accept their paperwork, because the teams said the entries will only be valid if the proposed 2010 rules are torn up.

Domenicali clarified that the teams are demanding the 2009 rules next year "modified
as per FOTA's suggestions", and seemed to contradict reports that a budget cap of 100m euro will apply in 2010, before the FIA president's preferred 45m figure arrives in 2011.

The Italian said the teams should instead police their own budgets, while small teams are offered cost-saving measures like 6.5m customer engines and gearboxes.

One of the proposed new rules, meanwhile, is a limit on the number of new wings that can be introduced per season.

"There are many other points, but for the moment we prefer not to go into further detail, given we are in discussion with the FIA," Domenicali added.

 

Be careful what you ask for.

 

Now how would I allow Luca DiMontezemelo to agree to my budget caps, and still put himself in a positive light and let him feed his ego???? Hmmmmm.........

Well, we would come to terms concering the revised 2009 F1 rules on that FOTA deadline of June 12, that is just, I mean JUST, before the June 13-15 Vingt Quatre Heures du Mans. And Luca my dear friend would be able to announce to the world from his LeMans spotlight to thunderous applause that due to his non-stop efforts his FOTA has come to terms with the FIA and F1 lives.

How convenient. ;}

 

I have too much faith in commerce (or is it avarice?) to think that this won't be worked out.
The negotiations that matter are occurring between FOM and FOTA. The rest is a distraction (or is it a diversion?).
The sky is not falling. F1 will be back next year with most of the same teams.

 

to which I am afraid there'd be much booing not much applause from the sportcar fans there

Carol

 

I wasn't objecting to your holding the opinion that those teams shouldn't be in F1, it's an opinion and you're entitled to it. I did, however, think you were rather better than to resort to infantile name calling. Aston Martin and Lola both have a proud history and in my view have as much right to be in F1 as anyone else.

I suggested the world's oil supply would run out by the end of the century, it probably depends on your age as to whether you would categorise that as 'someday soon'. If you think the supply is inexhaustible that's an opinion and you're entitled to that one too, ridiculous as it is.

 

Every other sport involving huge amounts of expenditure each year has gone through these "issues". When you look at other codes you can see the issues Formula 1 is facing in 2010. One could look at the Football Premiership, Man. Utd is in all sorts of competitions, such as the Champions League, FA cup, various other cups, and the Premiership. In other codes there are breakaway championships as well, in Motorsport we had the split between CART and Indy cars. Indycar's was successful and CART could have been equally successful IF they could have expanded there access to engines other than FORD, and tracks other than ovals that no-one cared about.
For Forumula 1 the issues will be if the current FOTA decided to take their vehicles and operate another series it would not be terribly difficult, the organisation would be possible, my only personal drawback would be the age old question "could the teams work together ??" for several years, even this could be solved with a long term contract tying them together. In all other areas Formula 1 would be OK, they currently pony up 1 bn USD each year between them, and the sport generates X amounts of revenue above that, that has traditionally lined Bernie and the FIA's pockets, there is nothing to stop them, to stop them directing a bit of it into running an F1 competition series. As for the economic issues, well that will affect any form of motorsport, be it Formula 1 or a breakaway championship EQUALLY.

As to the teams
Mercedes Benz is in it for good, both because the company has the spare $$$$, and because they own both a large share of McLaren, and according to some reports are going to buy a stake in Brawn. And I dont see either leaving Formula 1 or whatever replaces it for at least the next 5 years.
Ferrari are in it Formula 1, because what else would they do. I mean really, anything else would be kind of below them.
BMW, ditto.
Renault, maybe, maybe not. I admit if the FLAV takes over the budget will drop. BUT Renault will keep paying him cash.
TOYOTA, depends on how well the team does, and if they actually sell some Corolla's this year.
Red Bull, definitely in Formula 1, he has the money and what else would he do with it.

As for whether they would actually withdraw from Formula 1 and run another series, even though I think they could, I would agree this is just another of Formula one's regular push and shove matches. And FOTA and FIA will find a middle ground and agree to a middle path. EVENTUALLY,

One question for all of you is WHAT ABOUT BERNIES DIVORCE, will this affect his need for yet more money out of Formula 1 ????

Just my opinion

Timmmmmmmmmy

 

Great idea Mike we go back to pre-war style handicapping. The slower cars are started earlier than the faster ones and if done properly all should cross the finish line at the same time.
Max is just trying to bring back the good old Thirties. Probably has something or other to do with his Father issues.

 

Don't get me wrong. The issues are serious. Change is needed for the sport to survive, but I resent how they cynically manipulate the fan base. IMO it just shows what they think of us.

 

Michael, everything is about negotiation. Bernie will not go bankrupt in any situation. You see, if you understood negotiation at this level, you would understand Bernie eats caviar no matter what. Everything you say, shows your opinion of Bernie and Max, you must stop that, or you will not understand how this game works. To understand what is happening, keep you personal thoughts of the individuals out of your thinking.

Then you get that the true problem to us spectators is FOTA. They too make millions, the principals are wealthy, you bought into the crap about the teams getting more or the TV revenue. They already get 47%! OK so give them another 3%. That's it, tell them to screw themselves if they want more. If I were in Bernie's shoes, I would want 35-40%, but if I remember correctly, Bernie only gets about 27-28%.

I do not know about you or any other F1 spectator, but I would not be thrilled to watch a race with 6-7 three car teams. I want 20-24 two car teams.

This is business, not some high school popularity contest. Under these circumstances, I could not give a rat's ass if Ferrari leaves, if they can't win races with the same budget as Force India, then they need to get out of racing. That means they suck.

I will take the unpopular position, Bernie and Max may be complete A-holes, but they have given us a terrific venue to watch for may years. To assume that the FIA is the problem is really silly. Stop, look at it from a different angle, assume nothing, and then you will see the biggest problem is certain teams in the FIA that fear losing to what ever it is you call these new teams.

 

Mike, I enjoy reading yours and Ron's and the other posts, and participate when I think I have a valid point to offer. That being said, I am in complete agreement with you(and have been saying similar comments) with respect to Bernie and Max playing the same old game, but this time their dancing with a different breed of partner in LDM/FOTA. I for one do not believe that this is just a little brinksmanship on their part, I think they are playing for keeps now. They have had enough of the games and manipulation, and I think they are in it to break Max and Bernie once and for all. I see Max out and Bernie capitulating, otherwise I think this is exactly the best time to break away. Furthermore, I suspect the politician LDM has been working behind the scenes, and if I were Max and Bernie I would not understimate that.....my 2c

 

Max will head the FIA until 2153.

 

Mike, What arrangements has Bernie made AFTER he is gone? Do the banks, his wife, his daughters have control? who will FOTA be dealing with then? It would not surprise me in the least if FOTA has that on their mind as well. I believe this whole deal is about the future power structure in F1 more than even the money. The money side will fall in place once the control issues are settled.

 

IMHO with these guys money is never left to chance.

 

+100!

 

One can only hope!

 

Max's term comes up this fall. The FIA has put in to place a two term maximum for Max's position. He has held it now for I think four terms. I have a feleling he will retire this fall.

Having said that, I still do not agree with you as to this FIA/FOM/FOTA situation. This is a negotiation, with the players involved, I do not see anything unsusual in this process. I do not want to repeat what I said in my earlier response to you, I still believe from the facts that the FIA holds the stronger hand. I do not think you can dispute with what I said in that earlier post. Michael, even in this thread, you are still using personalities in your assessment. Bernie this, Max that. I think that you need to stop looking at personalities and look at the facts. And realize there is more to this than we know.

For example, I am curious if the rumor I have heard about Bernie's divorce actually scam to hide his assets. How does that affect the TV revenue deal?

I think the only one that F1 can survive without is FOTA. The chances of a breakaway series are less than 1%, for the reasons I stated earlier. FOTA knows this. If I were Max, I would give them what I was willing to comprimise from the start, and tell them take it or leave it. With the current teams leaving, with NO signs of new major corporate blood with unlimted budgets, you have to bring in new teams to fill the gaps, and to do that you have to have some sort of budget control for all teams. Short of dictating specifications that would be one hair above a spec series, you use budget caps.

Ferrari is not going anywhere. And as I said yesterday, I think as many as five of the current teams will stay with the FIA. These teams want budget caps, because they want to be competitive and win races. What I see as the ultimate decision, what is worth saving, Ferrari in F1, or F1? For me, F1, for if Ferrari goes, they will return at some point because there is no place else to go.

I will say this one more time, I have no problem with similar budget caps for all the teams, for two reasons. 1) There is no question that new teams are needed and there are no more manufacturers in this world that have the ability during the current economic situation to spend Ferrari/Toyota sums of money to be competitive. So you have to look at what level of spending will entice these new entries so you do not find yourself with only 4-5 teams in 5 years. And 2) I stick with my philosophy that if Ferrari can not be a winning team with similar budgets as other teams such as Brawn, March, Lola, Red Bull, then it is not the system that is the problem, it is that Ferrari has the wrong personnel. If Ferrari corporate find this to be to difficult, then they should get out of F1. At this moment, dollar for dollar, they are getting the same as Force India results. Gee whiz. Looks like money don't buy everything.

How long will BMW spend the money to only be in second or third place? How long will Red Bull keep two teams that only finish second or third? What happened to spectator viewership of F1 during the Schumacher years?

(BTW, sorry, I did not mean anything insulting about your negotiation skills, I just have no idea what they are, )

Michael, if times were different, corporate economies were healthy, we would not be having this discussion. Wishfull thinking about a race series that is the pinnacle with unlimted budget players is not reality today. And maybe not for the next five years, so something must be done to keep the sport alive. With or without Ferrari.

What is your solution to this situation:

Assumptions:
1) No changes to 2009 regualtion, no budget caps, none of the new teams enters F1 in 2010.
2) Toyota leaves at the end of 2010, no body can come up with the money to buy the team
3) Renault leaves at the end of 2009, Britatore buys the team, but wants to resurrect budget caps.
4) Frank Williams health is failing, no buyers for the team, Williams announces it will end F1 2012
5) Force India's owner decides spending $100 million of his own money every year and barely make it to Q2 is
not worth it so he folds in 2011.
6) Red Bull's BOD decides that after years of not winning the WDC or the WCC, since Ferrari and McLaren are always at the top,
it is time to reduce to one team after 2012.
7) Now you are down to 6 teams, 12 cars for 2013.
8) You must fill a minimum 20 car grid every race per contract.
9) World wide economy is still stagnent, no major corporate F1 teams possible until maybe 2020.
10) Your studies show that $100 million USD is the budget level to attract new teams, but only if they
have a chance at podium by their third season.

Yes this is the worst case senario, almost, don't forget the the Mercedes BOD was only one vote away from quitting F1. And what if Briatore does not come up with the money to buy the Renault? What if Red Bull decides to move to LeMans sponsorship? What if Ferrari wins every year because of the teams left they can buy their wins? How teams will stick around?

So how do you keep F1 alive while keeping within the assumptions? No changes Michael, no well this isn't going to happen, or that isn't possible. Take the assumptions as presented, and keep F1 alive.


Three car teams? I won't be watching.

 

These negotiations however bizarre are real.
Ron I'm curious as to why you picked these particular scenarios.
M/B was very close to pulling out of F1 not long ago now they're rumored to be backing Brawn under the table with an eye to rebadging them as Mercedes next year. If true what changed and what does it say about their expectations of the new F1 cost/revenue structure?

 

Force India results? Did you miss the podium last race?