REPORT: FIA will reject teams conditional applications

My opinion on the matter is that the budget caps are not really able to be effectively regulated by the FIA. The FIA can't even effectively regulate air and fuel temp measurements, let alone financial expenditures. Large companies would have "research" programs that may benefit their F1 development that are outside of the cap. Those companies are certainly not going to open their books to the FIA.

Ultimately the maketplace will regulate budgets, in conjunction with world economies, television revenues and sponsorship placements. Some car companies will still want to race as a form of research and prestige, other companies because that is all they do (Williams). The last and probably least considered aspect of all of this is that of the F1 fan, even though viewership and percieved sponsor value is what makes this whole thing worthwhile.

Max is trying to forestall a future problem which he sees for the sport based on economic reality. I think he is going about it the wrong way, but massive expenditures to develop cars with little technological carryover to standard transportation vehicles is unsustainable. F1 will likely have a reduction in expense out of necessity and even lose some teams. A better way to support Formula 1 is to re-establish the support and feeder series ladder, such as F2, F3, which they are doing. It is here that you develop drivers, teams, sponsors and the like, not by artificially capping the price of F1, letting anyone in and still trying to sell it as F1. It cheapens the Formula.

Speed, reliability and efficiency are all part of F1 and directly applicable to regular transportation. FIA should try to set the rules of the Formula as to encourage the development of better technologies that are faster and better than what we have today.

 

Yes, I also saw the results the first 5 races. My point being that dollar for dollar spent, they are not getting any better results than a backmarker with 20% of Ferrari's budget. Their huge budget did not buy them any wins.

Its not a matter of how much you spend, it is a question of who is doing the spending, i.e., better engineers, better drivers, whatever, and how clever they are with their development. So even with equal budgets, the better engineers with the better drivers still will win races.

 

It would be great if someone accidentally backed over him in the paddock

 

David, if you look at the scenarios, each one is possible. I did not make them up, they are all rumors, but rumors that one has to consider as possible, and plan accordingly. I have to believe that those truly inside the sport know more about the possibility of these rumors than any of us. Flavio and Bernie have dinner periodically, you don't think that Flav asked Bernie for recommendations of financial backers to acquire the Renault team?

But if you ask yourself these questions, you can get a better idea of what is really happening and why these rumors should be taken seriously:

How long will corporate teams continue spending money and not win championships in this current world wide economic environment? Toyota, BMW, Renault, Red Bull?

How do backmarkers continue surviving if they can not sell their achievements to sponsors? Williams, Force India?

Will Mercesdes really badge low budget Brawn and still keep the big budget McLaren? Who would buy their position in McLaren? Again, Mercedes earlier this year, one vote away from leaving F1.

Where are there potential new corporate big buck entrants? Who is left that would be a big buck corporate entrant in F1? Audi? Porsche? VW? Certainly no USA company. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are in trouble. Fiat with Alfa Romeo? Hyundai? Kia? Peugeot? I would say none of the above. VW, Audi, and Alfa Romeo are looking at the IRL, its cheaper!! Do you think if F1 had budget caps, maybe VW or Audi or Porsche would go F1?

How does F1 survive if there are no new big buck corporate entrants? And no other low buck teams interested because of the expense.

Yes, these are real negotiations, no doubt. Are they bizarre? Considering the egos, and what is at stake, I don't think so. This recent FOTA letter to the FIA to me is just as ridiculous as the two tier system. There is no solution offered. Its like they intentionally gave Mosley the opportunity to tell FOTA to stuff it. Honestly, I hope he does.

So far, all I read in some posts are comments about Mosley and Ecclestone, yet no one answers these questions. This is not about Mosley and Ecclestone, its about the survival of F1 in the most serious economically challenging period in F1's history. The fact that Prodrive, Lola, and March have all entered F1 for 2010 is incredible. Is it so difficult to accept the fact that our Ferrari does not want budget caps because all they care about is Ferrari, and not F1? There are no big buck corporation in the world that will enter F1 with unlimited budgets! Why, because no one wants to come in fourth or fifth every race for 4 seasons. If there are, please tell me, so I can make sure they are not in my stock portfolio.

What I do not understand is why a lot of people here in the peanut gallery keep putting personalities into the mix. I really doubt that anyone in FOTA cares about Max's escapades with hookers, consider the glass houses everyone lives in. Most every principal in F1 has become rich because of Bernie Ecclestone, so I doubt if anyone in FOTA considers him the evil pigmy. I have a strong feeling that all concerned FIA, FOM, FOTA, consider this a serious business negotiation. Its a professional game of chess.

And no one here or on any website I've seen has offered any concrete solutions. Sticking to wishful thinking about the pinnacle of motor sports with unlimited budgets in 2009 and beyond is just being unrealistic. Remember, that every team on the grid except Ferrari, was at one time one of thos podunk crapmakers, so the criticism of these new entrants is really unfounded. Or is it a fear that USGP or whatever their legal name could beat Ferrari at its own game? Is that corporate Ferrari's fear?

David, I hope I answered your question.

 

Yes and thank you.
Of course they raised even more.
There has been a rising split between McLaren and Mercedes over the road car business and they are going their separate ways there so M/B may not see the value in keeping the F1 connection if they can sponsor a lower budget wining team that will bear their company name solely.
Maybe not bizarre but Machiavellian.
IMO the FIA's attempts at cost control usually result in increased costs due to the frequent changes in the rules. Is it any wonder that the teams no longer trust Max?
As is often the case F1's biggest attraction, technical sophistication, has become it's biggest liability due to its now prohibitive cost. We have come to a time when the sport has to be redefined if not reinvented. Does anyone think that Max is the sort of visionary who can achieve that? Based on what he's put up so far this year I don't.
You are right to imply that if the sport doesn't rein in the costs the costs will kill the sport.

 

David, great points. At this time, good or bad, Max is it. It is up to FOTA to control Max, and come up with viable solutions that would promote a compromise from the FIA. But so far, FOTA has back peddled and offers no solution. Instead they will be told what to do, take it or leave it. They should have offered a compromise, and demanded that rules be impleted after a specific time frame with input form the teams. From where I stand, the word stupid does not go in the FIA column on this one.

Consider, FOTA had no strength, until Max yanked their cord. I ask myself, if I were Max (I'm not into hookers and whips) and I was dealing with an unresponsive team owner organization, how would I get them to pay attention? I mean for years we (FIA) have been asking the teams for a solution to rising costs, and hardly any input. Now, they (FOTA) are suddenly meeting frantically to deal with the bizarre (your word David) ideas I have thrown out. David, what I am saying, don't get caught in the personality trap, don't underestimate your opponent. Max is getting old, maybe a bit senial, but maybe not. I would suggest that no one here either knows him personally, or has dealt with him.

Then I could be wrong, and Max will give in. What really confuses me, all of the teams agreed over the last 2-3 years that cost cuts even budget caps were necessary. So why this reaction now?

 

I judge people by there actions, even though I don't know them personally.

 

In the end how else do you know someone?
Welcome back from vacation.

 

David, Angie and Brad split up again, he is leaving her for a tranvestite, takinig all the kids with him. Actually, he found her sleeping with her brother. Again! I read it on the cover of a newspaper in the grocery store. Must be totally true.

Right?

 

Ahh Thanks mate, I see we have advanced no further than an asthmatic ant with some heavy shopping..

 

I don't know Max save what I read in the newspapers and I bear him no personal animosity. What I do know is what he's said and what he's done.
He is a man of great accomplishment but at this point he seems to overstayed his welcome. Even without the budget issues I have difficulty thinking of anything he's done in the last few years that's benefited the sport. The constant spec changes have increased team expenses. The US, Canada, France and possibly the UK have lost their races. While am not privy to the ongoing negotiations (No one outside of FOTA/FIA/FOM is) from the outside they look to be shambolic mostly due to the FIA's autocratic demands for a spending cap and a two tiered system.
To say that Max's actions were designed to elicit a response gives the man more credit than I see him having earned. You may be right but from my limited viewpoint that's the way it looks.
In the end its not about Max though. Its about what must be done to save the sport. I just wish the matter were in the hands of people who cared a bit more about the fans. And no I don't think Bernie or even FOTA do either.

 

+1
Yup.

People spouting hot air about their take on the matter means zip, the bottom line is that the ongoing crisis remains. Fans are confused and the sport is not gaining anything from it all.

But there is a recuring common theme...Max's own words: "You can't have just a lot of old men running it."

 

You can no more equate supermarket tabloids with the responsible press than you can compare The Scuderia with Spyker
Seriously I get my information from a variety of electronic and print media and have been around long enough to know a credible source from a rant.
This is sport not world affairs and so I am more willing to run the risk of being misguided here.
I also know that there is no such thing as a totally unbiased opinion other than my own

 

If by "old" you mean older than me I agree

 

+100!

Saying you can't have a credible opinion on someone's actions because you don't personally know them is laughable.

 

When you get down to it this is all speculation on our parts. We each decide for ourselves what constitutes credible.

 

Yes, and IMO were not a reflection of true team Ferrari. Their lack of performance was more due to being a year late to the development table.

Really, remind me the last time force India has had a podium finish???

IMO, not yet...but it will soon. It already has bought them a podium and is nearing the pace of a team that had a years development jump on them plus also had a huge budget...not to mention had Ross Brawn at the helm. I'd say Ferrari have closed the gap pretty quickly considering how far back they started.

But then again what do I know...I'm just a nobody fan of F1 who doesn't have any close personal friends that are intimately involved in F1.

 

Speak for yourself. I know a guy who knows a guy who has a friend that used to have a girlfriend that was a receptionist for Ferrari. You can't tell me my opinion isn't credible!

 

You are a fan of F1 like me, and probably see it the same way as me, believe me Clint you are not a nobody.

But: If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through...

 

Well at least we have that to look forward too.

 

Of course I can this is the INTERNET

 

Hear, hear!!

 

Sorry, but you missed the point entirely. Possibly it is the way I worded it, my bad, or possibly something else. Anyway, you missed the point.

 

Why?

If I am not present when something occurs, how can I say anything with any credibility? I am only repeating what someone else said or wrote, and the chance always exists they are wrong, or even partially in error with facts.

Consider in a courtroom, a credible witness is one that was actually present and witnessed the event in question. Otherwise they use the term hearsay.

hearsay: evidence based on what someone has told the witness and not of direct knowledge
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

What is truly laughable is to assume you know the facts about someone you have never met. That crosses the line into arrogance. I don't know you, so your intent may not be one of arrogance, all I do know about you is that you seem to want badly to show everything I say is wrong. So far in my personal opinion, I don't think you have done that as you only refer to what others say, not your personal experience.

 

I think your statement that none of this is about Max is accurate. It isn't. None of these negotiations is about Max Mosley's private life. My only opinion of Max Mosley is that after four terms it is time for him to retire and let some new vision enter motorsports. I only know what I read about him, and can only guess how accurate that might be. What he does in his private life is none of my concern as long as it does not involve children and puppies.

Losing the GP's in the USA, Canada, and possibly the UK had nothing to do with Max, that is all Bernie's doing. You are also right, none of the three FOM, FIA, or FOTA care about the fans.

I also pose the Fidel Castro question, will his replacement be any different? I seem to remember a stubby Frenchman that ran the FIA and drew all sort of criticism. Maybe it is a requirement of the position, or maybe the position turns one into this autocratic personality. I dont' know. It would only be a guess.

Consider this is a negotiation, so in a heavy negotiation you throw out first what you don't expect. David do you agree? So what did Mosley throw out first? What was the reaction? And has what has he already withdrawn? The answers to those questions led me to believe that this was part of his negotiation tactics. I would not begin to assume to believe he went into this thinking he would get what he wants, when sitting on the other side of the table is Luca, Flavio, and whomever the Red Bull rep is. Even someone of limited experience would expect to have the same crap thrown back from the other side. I hope that explains how I drew that conclusion.

Still, at this point, no one has anawered the questions I posed in my "Save F1"scenario.