Confirmation on timing

Damn this is frustrating.........nearly all the original parts (wires, rotors, caps, plugs, relays, battery, etc.) have been replaced in the car w/ ('84 euro QV) and everything has been triple checked and traced but it still won't start. All the cylinders are getting a good spark, fuel system is operational, but it sounds like it's out of time. Just to verify that it's not somehow out of sync, when the timing marks are aligned for the 5-8 bank looking in the oil fill hole, the flywheel pointer is pointing at 5-8 TDC, # 5 plug pulled and piston appears to be at TDC, 5-8 distributor cap pulled and rotor is pointing to #5 cylinder, doesn't this confirm that the car is at least somewhat close to correct without setting w/ a degree wheel? Or to word it in another way, after a 30k major when the belts are replaced if the timing is not set by a degree wheel to compensate for belt stretch, could it be far enough off to prevent the car from starting?

 

no, so it must be something else.
What did you do on he car, and why?

 

It has been pretty much a wheel-up restore w/ the exception of the suspension. The car was a beater when I purchased it 14 months ago and I've done my best to bring it back to life. A Major, disassembled and powder coated major engine components, new wiring and fuse box, all new hoses, all 4 calipers rebuilt w new rotors, etc. etc.

It started initially when I first tried several months ago, but it overheated after a broken belt (overtightened) and it had a vacuum leak which caused the rpm to surge. After resealing the top end and replacing the belt, haven't been able to get it started again?

Why?..............to save a classic.

 

The oil filler is on the 1-4 bank and when those marks are lined up the timing mark should be on the PMS 1-4.

Did you take notes when you took it apart?

 

That's perhaps where the confusion lies on my part, but according to the drawing in the OM and the maintenance manual the #5 cylinder is directly below the oil fill opening.

The notes I took are slightly more detailed than the diagrams my dad used to draw on the side of our station wagon when he rebuilt the brakes ;-)
View attachment 308QV_euro_owners.pdf
View attachment 308QV_Firing Order.pdf

 

Somewhere in my dusty, damaged old mind, I remember the illustration being numbered wrong. Please check that further.

 

Actually on closer inspection, it appears that the diagrams are in contradiction with one another. The OM shows the front pulley on the right side w/ the 1-4 bank adjacent to the firewall and the service manual from what I can tell shows the outline of the front pulley and alternator with the 1-4 bank at the rear of the car.

Is the diagram in the OM incorrect?

 

It's not "incorrect", but it's been rotated so that the bottom of the figure corresponds to the firewall location (i.e., imagine that you are standing with your feet on the seat bottom cushions and are looking down on the engine). The long "snout" on the crankshaft is the end where the timing belts are located.

 

Correct! That's what I now remember! Rui Gigante and I went through that when he was working on his 328.

 

Boy do I feel dumb. When I looked at the diagram I was thinking the long snout was the shaft for the transmission/clutch and the other end represented the crank pulley. The bogus pulley even looks like it's grooved for a 'v' belt and the diagram is almost identical to how it's typically shown in maintenance manuals for American cars. I may even get her started this evening after a 14 month hiatus!

 

EASY mistake. I mean, how often do we see the engine with both ends of the crank exposed?!

 

just to eliminate all misunderstandings

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well that's a nice picture! i'll keep it, thanx!

 

It's easy once you recognize the outline of the YORK A/C compressor on the timing belt end..

And not to be too obvious but my valve/cam covers have the cylinder number embossed into them, don't the later cars have this????

Good luck man! We are all rooting for you!

 

the covers of my 328 say 1/4
twice...

 

And that is correct. It shows the firing order for each distributor.

 

I hope the valves survived.

 

He could have the cams/valves right and just have the distributor/rotor indexed wrong?

I'm just a dog watching TV.....

 

He said he timed it at PM5-8 with the cam timing marks lined up. The cam timing marks are set at PM1-4.

 

Well I hate to say it but it's still a no go. I switched the coil and sensor leads with no success. I've got a nice blue spark and the injectors are singing when I push on the air plate, but it still won't start.

How can I confirm the distributor/rotor indexing?

 

I don't know what you mean by distributor/rotor indexing but,
confirm, by using a stoboscope on the flywheelmarks, that ignition is indeed right
A nice blue spark is fine but it should light up at the right moment too

BTW you should smell a stark pertrol fume by now.. (do you?)

 

And although you can't easily confirm that the spark is occuring at the right time (with static measurements), you can verify to which plug wire the distributor is pointing given each of the flywheel marks. If it were mine, I would go back to first principles, set it to firing TDC on #1 (valves closed) and THEN study every element of the ignition alignment. Two cents please.

 

Swapping coils isn't goingto do it. From your statement in the first post you have the cams timed wrong.

 

This thread was referenced in another thread, I hadn't read it until now. Up above there is a picture lableled "Firing Order on 308 Engine." And it has the cylinders numbered. That is NOT the firing order, that is the cylinder numbers. The engine does not fire the cylinders in order from front to back, one side and then the other, it goes from bank to bank back and forth. This picture will encourage misunderstandings, not prevent them. It is either titled wrong or is numbered wrong.

 

NO!!!
When the timing marks for the 5-8 bank are lined up,
the flywheel pointer should be pointing to the PM1-4 vertical mark. At the same time, the 1-4 bank timing marks must be lined up. ie: the cam-cam cap timing marks for BOTH banks must be lined up with the flywheel on the PM1-4 mark.