Help with my fans...Ghibli

I'm really a very novice mechanic, but noted that the Ghibli I just bought (#161) was overheating. Fans not working. So some of my question is generic for this repair, some not. Figured I'd start with the fuse (which I haven't had time to check, yet), but assuming it's not that, are the fans thermostatically controlled? How do you test the thermostatic coupler (or whatever it's called)? Does it control both fans? How can you apply 12V to each fan to test them, tho' having both fail seems unlikely. My fans are short, plastic 4-blade deals that look whimpy. Are these really robust enough to keep the engine cool? Especially once I get the AC up and running. Thanx again. steve

 

Well, I'm not above answering some of my own questions...the fans on my car kick on with the ignition, but only one is working, so I'll need to get in there and see if it's the fan, or the wiring to that fan. Access is lousy, at least from above, so I'll need to get the car up on the lift next. s

 

The fans should be controlled by a thermostatic switch (#23 in the drawing) located in the radiator. At least one should cycle on and off, it is possible (some cars are wired this way) that the other comes on if you turn on air conditioning. If everything is right those little fans should do a fine job.

If the fan runs all the time that the key is on it has probably been re-wired as such because the thermostat failed.

The thermostat is a grounding switch, when it reaches the set point (around 180 degrees) it completes a circuit to ground energizing a relay to the fan(s).
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Tim, thanx for the schematic and the info. I'll post this list as I get more done. thanx again. s
"when you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you originally came to drain the swamp"

 

You have an early Ghibli which originally came with dual pusher type Lucas fans. These fans were not too efficient and later were replaced with dual Bosch puller fans mounted between the radiator and the engine. The thermostatic switch, which is mounted on the radiator, on the early cars was made by Otter and the same switch is used on the Jaguar series 1 and 2 e-types. They are known to fail. An easy test is to take the electric lead that connects to the center of the Otter switch and ground it. This should trigger the fan relay and the fans should work.

Many people remove the dual Lucas fans and instead mount a single large modern fan between the radiator and the engine. But first, get the original fans to work and see what happens. You do NOT want that engine to overheat ... things can get very expensive.

Ivan

 

It maybe a few days before I get out to the garage to check this, but thank you both for the help. I'll keep you posted. steve

 

Ivan, I was told that if I wanted to replace my AC compressor, it was tricky, involving the water pump and requiring some special shims so that everything was perfectly aligned. Is this right? I'd like my AC to work and it needs a condenser as well. Wanted to get all of this done at the same time. thanx for your advice. steve

 

The water pump is driven by a wire which is pulled from the A/C compressor pulley. I know of no other engine in the planet that has this weird method of turning the water pump ... but it works. This cable will last a long time if, and only if, the A/C pulley is exactly concentric with the water pump. If the two are not exactly concentric, the cable will wiggle and eventually break. It is like wiggleling a papel clip, after some time it snaps. The first rule is not to replace the A/C compressor unless you are positive that it needs to be replaced. Many times A/C problems are attributed to the compressor when indeed the problem is elsewhere. If you must replace the compressor make sure the suction port is on the same side as the original. If not, the compressor will not get proper lubrication and you will be doing this again in a short time.

I do not like to use shims and first fit the new compressor and see how the cable is doing. If you find that an adjustment is needed, the easiest thing is to pull the water pump and align everything on a bench. Sometimes shims are needed, sometimes you neeed to file the metal a little. Make a note of any shim location and them mount the parts on the car.

This can go rather smoothly or it can become a tedious job. How much do you miss the A/C ?

Ivan

 

Ivan, Thanx for the in depth view of this. When I started working on this, the left fan went on with ignition key in the run position, the right not at all. Now neither work, and grounding the wires that attach to the Otter switches (in the radiator) gives no effect (key in the run position, but engine off). Could be dead fans or dead relays, or bad wiring, yes? From the factory, did these fans have relays? If so where are they located? What's a good source for the Otter switch?

If I decided to just run a single decent sized Spal puller fan from behind the radiator, would I just use one fo the two wires that go to the Otter switch (replace the switch to be sure it works well)? Just ignore the one unused wire?

On the AC...is the only fan that blows cold air, the one on the dash? If so,, mine works, but not much velocity. Can the compressor be tested "in situ"? Someone recommended a Sanden compressor. I used one years ago on a Porsche, but this seems trickier. If you'd rather email me off line, that's OK as well. thanx for your help and for letting me lean on you here. steve meltzer
<[email protected]>

 

Please keep the thread going

I'm rebuilding my car and need as much info as possible.

Slight hi-jack - I believe I currently have the wrong compressor, any ideas on the what to replace it with?

And which fan did you use as a replacement?.....think I'd like to upgrade that when putting her back together

 

Welcome aboard, as long as the guys who know a lot about these cars are helping, we'll learn together. Obviously, I don't know the answer about which compressor, but heed the info about the WP. email me off line if you'd like. steve <[email protected]>

 

Replacing the York compressor with anything else would be an engineering task. The Sanden compressor does not have the same physical dimensions of the York compressor and I have no idea how you would be able to mount it and still drive the water pump. I recommend you take the car to a qualified A/C shop. There is nothing exotic about this A/C system and most parts are off the shelf.

The radiator fan relay is normally located in the left side of the engine compartment, next to the engine bay light. Usually there are two relays, but early cars may only have one. Turn on the ignition and then ground the thermo switch; you should hear the relay clicking. If not, then it is time to verify voltages at the relay and the fuse box. This photo is of a 1967 Ghibli that was fitted with a modern puller fan. The relay is aftermarket and instead of the original thermo switch a variable switch was fitted. This permits you to select at which temperature you want the fan to start. I did not install this fan; it could have been done in a way it dioes not look so much aftermarket. Before you start replacing parts you need to figure out why the factory fans are not working.

Many electrical gremlins are caused by corrosion in the fuse box. Clean the contacts where the fuses connect and replace the fuses with new ones, they are the same as the old VW beetle and the owner's manual has the correct amperages.

On the interior fan air volume ... make sure the air damper is in the open position. It is the lever usually marked with a small and a large white dot.

Ivan
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Ivan, can't thank you enough for the excellent advice. I'm going OOT for few days, but will get back with you (and the car) ASAP. Again, thanx for the advice, as I really want to do the job myself. steve

 

The Otter switches are harder to find these days and expensive too. Here's what I got as a backup on another car that uses the Otter switch. My 35 year old original Otter switch is still good.

http://coolcatcorp.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=FS12&Category_Code=CS

If your car isn't using relays to control the fans then the Otter switch won't survive. You can always add relays. That and a new power buss line will be required if you get a newer high capacity fan(s).

Bob S.

 

During the 28 years that I owned MIE we serviced and or restored dozens of Ghiblis. The early cars always seemed "under fanned." (Mandarano phonix)
The solution was to install two high output fans in front of the radiator in the same position as the original fans. You could actually wire them up to the exsisting wiring harnes.
The new motors draw 11 amps and sound like a 737 on take off. A very reassuring sound. Sometimes we installed relays and an override switch on the dash.
I liked to use the rear window defogger switch because it had a yellow warning light on the dash that let you know the fans were on. and who ever uses the rear window defogger anyhow.
I never installed a uggly aftermarket fan on the engine side of the radiator as it just looks out of place. With the new fans installed in front you never see them, but you sure know they are there when they spool up. it is the sound of a cool running engine and that is a "feel good" sound. Simply remove the original Lucas fans and motors and store them to be sold with the car. The photo shows the fans and installation in a Quattroporte 107. Your Ghibli is very similar and the installation is very straight forward.
Hope this helps.
I have one fan and motor kit left over that i will not be using and if you want it contact me off line.
Ciao,
Frank Mandarano
107.034
107.1448
360 Spider
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Learnin' more and more all the time. thanx so much. I'm OOT so can't really get to the project for a week or so. Still gathering info and brain (small as it is) percolating right along. thanx again. steve

 

The Lucas motors appear identical to that used in a Series 1 E-type, so there are probably numerous options for upgrading that element from Jaguar-related sources. At least Maserati used multi-blade fans.

 

thanx for the info. I think there's a Bosch option, which I'll need to research. thanx again. steve

 

I like Frank's solution of using the original fan's mounting position the best. A puller fan would be more efficient but a couple of high velocity pusher fans should be more than adequate and certainly would help the engine bay keep its original look. You may want to check out the company that Bob S. mentioned .... CoolCatcorp.com. This company is well known amongst Jaguar e-type restorers for their excellent cooling system products. They make replacement fans for the e-type series 1 and 2 ... which look identical to the Lucas fans Frank showed in his photo. If your original Lucas fans are like these then CoolCat fans will mount easily. Jaguar e-type series 1 and 2 look identical but rotate in oposite directions, therefore make sure you check rotation of your original fans and then select the apopropriate e-type replacement. The CoolCat replacement for the Otter switch works fine but does not look original. If you are a stickler for keeping the look of your car original (which I am) then the original Otter switches should be readily available from Jaguar suppliers such as Welsh Jaguar (welshent.com), Terrys Jaguar and SNG Barratt.

CoolCat makes a replacement to the instrument voltage regulator which works great. I am departing a bit from the original topic but it is worth mentioning since you have an early car and therefore probably have Smith instruments. The Smith instruments (used on some Mistral, QP1, Mexico and Ghibli) rely on a 10 volt regulator(s) which is located behind the dash. On my Mistral the temperature gauge always read higher than actual engine temperature. I put in a new temp sensor with no change. The CoolCat regulator was the solutiuon since you can change the output voltage and thus easily calibrate the gauge. On my Mistral there were two regulators which controlled the water temp, oil temp and gasoline level gauges. The oil pressure gauge is connected directly to 12 volts.

Last piece of advice (for now), when working on the cooling system always have an infrared thermometer on hand to make sure you are getting acurate readings.

Ivan

 

This is just awesome help. I thank you guys all so much. I was despairing that there wasn't as much internet help on these cars as there has been for my old 'Vettes and the 330 gtc, but I'm getting high quality advice here as well, so I'm feeling more confident. Can't wait to get restarted on the car, but need to return from short vacation, and finish putting the dash back together on my '62 'vette. later and thanx again, really appreciate the great help. steve

 

The Smith instruments (used on some Mistral, QP1, Mexico and Ghibli) rely on a 10 volt regulator(s) which is located behind the dash.
On my Mistral the temperature gauge always read higher than actual engine temperature. I put in a new temp sensor with no change. The CoolCat regulator was the solutiuon since you can change the output voltage and thus easily calibrate the gauge. On my Mistral there were two regulators which controlled the water temp, oil temp and gasoline level gauges. The oil pressure gauge is connected directly to 12 volts.

Ivan,
I noted your comments above re the "Cool Cat regulator."
I am experiencing similar inaccurate readings on my QP 1 oil and water temp gauges when compared to my hand held infrared.
Perhaps you could expand on this subject ie provide additional info such as web site, model number, installation method, what it replaces & where etc?
Ciao
FGM
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Note: This ONLY applies to Smith instruments and not to Jaeger or Veglia gauges.

The gauges are designed to work at 10 volts and a small regulator, located somewhere behind the dash, brings the voltage down to 10 volts. Electrically, it is a rather crude regulator. If you connect an analog voltmeter to the output of the regulator (labeled "I") you will see the needle swing violently all over the place, between 8 and 14 volts. Enclosed are a couple of photos of the original regulator to help you spot it.

What CoolCat offers is a modern electronic version of this device. The beauty is that the output voltage is not only constant but can be adjusted and therefore the gauge reading can be adjusted. On a Jaguar e-type one regulator is used for all the gauges, on my Mistral I found two regulators next to each other. On a Maserati three gauges need to be regulated ... water temp, oil temp and gasoline. Oil pressure and Amp gauges are connected directly to 12 volts. If you want ultimate control, use three CoolCat regulators. I used two ... one for the water temp and the other for the oil temp; I connected to gasoline gauge to one of the two regulators.

This is a link to the CoolCat website showing the part you would need:

http://coolcatcorp.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SSIVR-N&Category_Code=EL

Speaking of CootCat, they offer an excellent repair service for Smith clocks. They fixed my Mistral clock, which should be the same as your QP1 clock. Unlike other folks that put quartz movements, this repair keeps the original movement and its classic "ticking sound".

Ivan
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Thank you Ivan,
This I hope will be a big help. I took 107.034 back to my Toy Barn today and when I arrived i let the car idle and noted the fans were coming on and off as normal.
With the hand held Temp devise I noted the Temp was running 64 to 65 degrees Celsius at the top of the radiator and at the thermostat housing, yet the gauge was reading 85 to 90. That is a big spread.
Tomorrow I will order a couple of those Cool Cat voltage reducers. Thanks again for the tip.
Ciao,
FGM

 

Hi Ivan

Thanks for posting this.

Damn! You know of course how erratic those Jaeger & Veglia gauges are on these old beasts. I just rebuilt the sender on the one in my Espada (seems to be identical to the one used in the Khamsin) and if I have 1/2 tank of gas then with just the key on it looks like 1/4 tank but when I start it up and you get that surge of charging voltage it's almost normal. I think these never worked properly and I like the idea behind the Smith's gauges especially with that nifty modern regulator.

What can we do about the ones that need well north of 12V to run properly?

With respect to that thermic switch they offer. Apparently it doesn't handle the same load as the original so you have to use a relay which is a good idea anyway but it's also a single pole switch to ground.
Do you know of another switch that will screw into that brass plate that's two pole?

Bob S.

 

I believe the CoolCat Otter switch replacement is using a thermo switch from a Japanese car. You may want to call them and see if they offer, or can suggest, a two pole solution. Sorry, but I do not know a solution for the Veglia and Jaeger gauges.

Ivan