308 V12 conversion begins

So fantastic. Keep the pix coming. PLEASE!

 

This car is going to be seriously fierce man!! Keep it up!

 

Thanks Wil. I was thinking about pulling the screen to gain a little space. I also thought about cutting the louver, I remembered you had done that, but I'm not sure if I want to do that. I'm sure it would look fine, what I'm thinking though is if I really want a new much lighter deck lid any way it would probably be best if I left the stock one stock and marketable after I use it to make a mold.

I did not know that Burns had either thin rod or flux, thanks.

 

If you are going to run distributors for the ignition (depending on what the various negotiations are going to show for) running the exhaust over the bell-housing may be somewhat problematic.
Looking at the installation, and just from a weight distribution point of view, why not move the fuel to the front? It'll free up space in there for air and routing the exhaust (the normal way around).

Regarding the deck lid: Why not do away with the solid part in the middle, and run narrow louvres from side to side? You don't need the space made by the centre piece (the 308 plenum has gone), your restriction comes from the original louvres. Using much narrower (and thus more) louvres over the full width, even retaining the same heighth will free up some spce and wouldn't look bad at all IMO. Even raising it an inch wouldn't be too much of a problem that way, but would give you considerable more space to work with.

 

Awe inspiring. Open up your 308 decklid and..... Holy *****!!

Could you build a mockup checkfit-only system with available flex hose and premade bends, like used in both automotive apps and residential heating/cooling? Stuff from Autozone and Home Depot.

 

I found that mcmaster has a great selection of foam tubes (pipe insulation) in about any diameter possible. I ordered a selection of everything I should need to mock-up the headers. I’m not sure what I’m going to stuff inside yet….I’ll try welding rod and see what happens. If that isn’t stiff enough maybe ¼” alum rod or maybe pvc pipe which would hold it’s shape great but is a little more trouble to form as a heat gun is required.

The foam should be here tomorrow or the next day and I can start playing around with it.

 

I thought about moving the fuel tanks…but I have to draw the line somewhere and for me that is where it is. I like the tanks where Ferrari put them because weight distribution doesn’t change with fuel load ….but mostly I’m getting sick of making stuff.


I kind of like the louver idea. I’ll have to think about that. Another think I could do is just cut a hole and let whatever air box I end up with sticking out. I don’t know what I’m going to do. I want to hit the 800 number but all the little detail stuff are making that increasingly less likely. Stacks from 16” down to 11 “ to fit under the hood, 20hp. Step headers to straight tube headers to fix the low/mid range, 20 hp. Less aggressive ramps on the cams to make stuff live a little longer, 20hp. And that means all my margin is gone before I add mufflers at maybe another 40hp and I’ve got a 750hp engine.

I need to get this thing done which means doing work is already on the do-to list and not doing anything that isn’t….I really need to think about the hood and fitting under it.

 

With all due respect to the fine folks at Burns Stainless, I don't think an X-pipe is anything but a make-shift compensation for a pre-existing flaw or compromise in a vehicle's exhaust system. I don't recall ever seeing any Indy or F1 cars with X-pipes.

Anyway, the pictures of the "full" engine bay are heartwarming indeed. Bravo!

 

The recomendations from burns were aimed at the most hp with the flattest torque curve which is quite different from the most hp like you would do on a race car. There is no question in my mind a different system could make more hp and I talked about that a bit with Vince, but he really felt I would be happiest with the system he spec'd so I'm going to trust him even if it means a 20hp peak loss like I think it does.

 

small diameter flexible copper tubing works well too. It has enough surface area to really carry the foam.

 

Something like this might be an easy way to get the X pipe. It's availabe with upto 3.5" inlet/outlet. The x is supposed to be as close as possible to the collector....but the muffler might just be as close as possible.
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That's a good idea. A quick inventory says I've got about 9' of 5/`6 copper, 12' 3/8" Alum and 20' of 1/2" soft copper pipe (5/8 OD)....I should be all set.

 

The box-o-foam came today. I quickly ripped a couple boards to be flanges, I still need to drill them then we can play fit the pipe in a very small space. I'm going to start on the front which isn't going to make for much a photo op with black tubes in a tiny dark space, but I'll try.

I'm re-thinking the muffler/tail pipe and thinking I'll go 3" like the Burns guy said. I'm not sure about mufflers....maybe borla multi-core XR-1's. I need to think some more.
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Are 400 headers a semi-close match to fitting the TR head? Might take a little chopping and fitting but you could save a lot of fab work by modifying an already existing header.

just a thought....

LOVE the project. Continued luck to you!!!!

 

I debated using that very muffler for my 308 but opted for the dynomax Buick Grandnational replacement instead. I didnt want it too loud.

So I say toss the fuel tanks as suggested earlier and place a fuel cell up front, you can fill it like a porsche and have plenty of room for headers and other goodies or just plain old access for future servicing.

 

Paul, I'm all with you.

There's no excuse for drawing the line there, certainly not if the problem you're trying to avoid is way smaller than the problem at hand.
There is certainly an argument in favour of the placement of the tanks, but they are just plain in the way where they are. They need to go.

 

Where did you find that one?

 

It's a dynomax X something, summit stocks it.

 

It's probably not all that obvious from the pictures, but the tanks are not the problem and are not in the way of anything. Looking at it tonight I probably will pull them so I can reach in to see and fit a little better, but leaving them out would serve no real purpose.

The problem starts the fact that I cleverly move the engine forward and down and then just as cleverly bumped up the hp peak to 9000 rpm. That left me with some minor header problem that just got major when the Burns guy said 6 into 2 is bad, I want 6 to 2 to 1. The original plan was 2 separate headers, one coming out over the bell housing and one through the notch in the gas tank where the AC compressor once lived and life would be good.

I have to come out high, not low like the factory setup because the engine is all in the way. Lowering the engine puts the oil pumps and lines right to the bottom of the frame and within an inch of the 10.5 wheel that’s there…..there is no way a pipe is going through there tank moved or not. On the other side the lower road is blocked by the transfer case and the wheel, no pipe there. The pipes just have to come out high.

The huge part of the problem is that I now need the 2 collectors to end up in the same spot to merge. The primaries are only 21” long to work at 9k rpm but the cylinders are 18.5” centerline to centerline so there is no possible way to send the headers to either side and get the collectors lined up. The pipes are just too short. I need to work in the space in front of the engine….somehow and then swing up and out one side of the other, I’m planning on the bellhousing side as it’s a little bigger window to hit.

I’ll get the engine back out and pull the tanks and start mocking it up and it should get more clear in the pictures. I’m pretty sure I can make it work if I come off the ports and go down, there is quite a lot of room engine to firewall down there. I suspect the collectors will end up right in a 90 degree turn which will be kind of a pain in the *ss to make but not the end of the world. Once I get the 2 collectors merged it should be smooth sailing up and out.

 

400 headers could be fit to the TR heads pretty easily but it wouldn't help me. They have a 1 1/2" OD tubes I think to work good on a 350hp engine but I need 1 3/4" to work good on an 800hp engine so even if the tubes went kindof in the right directions, which they don't, I couldn't use them. There is nothing about this project that is going to go easy.....

 

Good interim solution, much better to solve problems in foam than steel.

In an earlier post, you mentioned "mcmaster"...who are they? I also need some large ID foam tubing.

 

www.mcmaster.com

It mcmaster doesn't have it then you don't need it. They aren't always (ever?) the cheapest but they have EVERYTHING industrial, they ship the same day if you order by 4pm and they have several warehouses including one here in PA so for me everything I order comes the next day. It's where I get everything from a box of nylok nuts I needed last week to the 8620 steel bars for my cams, manometers and speed controlers for my flow bench 100 pages ago, and now foam tubes...they have everything and there service is the best. Its one of the very few places I have an open account ...which is very dangerous it turns out becasue its just too easy to start projects

 

I got an idea for the muffler. I was looking at the dynomax catalog and I found the 17676 Inlet/Outlet(same side) http://www.dynomax.com/mufflers.php?muffler=superturbo

The inlet and outlet are 2.5 inches

So, what you do is buy four of these. Then you chop the ends off, but leave the half round internal flow guides in place. (Weld in some small dia. support rods if nec.) Then you Siamese the two pairs end-to-end. That way you get the cross bank communication that seems to be needed. Take the two sets of Siamese twins, cut open one side of each and weld them together front-to-back to get full bank connection plus cut down on the over all thickness of the package. Connnect 3 cylinders to each inlet. The four outlets are each go to individual resonated tips.

The 17676s are only about $70 each at Jegs. The total of 4x2.5 inch pipes is the same surface area as a 5 inch round which should be plenty!

Here's a high tec. cad cam drawing...
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Mark,

Have you looked at the Aero Turbine mufflers?

http://www.aeroexhaust.com/suv_muffler_3030xl.html

All stainless and quite light. I have both the 2.5" and 3".

T...

 

what do they look like inside? anything in there that buggers up flow?