Maserati Khamsin

Hello welcome and thank you!

Yes any information on that car would be welcome, i.e. chassis number history and some better photos.

same for your car, one of the very last built, I have no photos of it and just some information courtesy of Andy Heywood and Walter Baumer as follows:

K 433

Heywood data :

RPR 92

Silver cream manual owner: "P. R."

First registered on 04 August 82.

WB :

AM120.433
1982, silver/beige
1982-86 with 2 owners in the UK
1986-2003 with 3rd owner in the UK, for sale, asking GBP 24.000

Thanks and best regards,

Marc

 

This photos were taken in 1991 (or so) by long time enthusiast Joe Alphabeth from CA, USA.
No idea about the VIN. The car at that time was an auto-version and California-registered 24869.

Ciao!
Walter
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Hi Marc,

I'll email the previous owner and see if he can supply the info you need. The car was advertised for sale in octane magazine in Feb 2006. As I said I met the guy after he'd sold it. Let me ask his permission first and besides I'll have to ask the chassis number. All I know from the advert is that it was a 1978 registered vehicle that had a full LHM system overhaul and replacement timing chains. I only recognised it becuase of the Lamborghini he also owned.

I'll try to get some updates for my car typed up and find some nice pics.

Cheers

Bal

 

Hi Walter:

Thank you for those: don't know it. I have a vague recollection of seeing a car with these protecting strips on the side looong ago but that's it. One more for the mystery file which always stays about the same size: as I figure out which chassis number a car is and give it its own proper file another mystery car pops up but that is part of the fun

best regards,

Marc

 

Hello Bal:

Thank you on both counts: much appreciated and look forward to them!

best regards,

Marc

 

Marc,
yep! But something must be there that drives us nuts! :)

Ciao!
Walter

 

Wasn't someone just takling about psychiatrists?!

best regards,

Marc

 

On a more somber note the sad fact is that the answer I received form Oliver Kuttner a few days ago (repasted below) announces no less than the destruction of four Khamsins: almost 1%....

I will try to locate the one in denmark and also the one in west Virginia.

best regards,

Marc

"I do not remember all the khamsins I had. I do know I killed a silver early
one I also know I had a two toned burgundy/red one as well as the silver black
one.
Further I know i HAD AT LEAST TWO RED ONES (ONE WAS SOLD TO p S IN
fREDERIKIA dENMARK
oNE WAS SOLD TO j W in West VA.
I had a nice black one I had a metalic light blue one.
That is all I know.

sorry I did not keep records.

I also know that they had different characteristics from slow to very fast.
I remember one with a cloth interior but do not recall which one.
I also know that at least two were killed by Randy's motors which I bought out
(and the remains of which were sent on to Jaque de Borgo
Also I remember that Kyle Fleming parted out one and sold me a corner to fix
one of the ones I had.

That is it for what I remember regards and good luck


oliver Kuttner[/QUOTE]"

 

Somehow in the back of my mind the Oliver Kuttner name rings a bell: Is he also the guy who made the Bizzarini replica bodies?

Sorry to be o/t.

 

Hi Jack:

Don't know if he made replicas but yes he has been very involved with Bizzarrinis for decades, buying and selling many of them and knows Gitto Bizzarrini, my favorite genius, very well.

best regards,

Marc

 

Hi Marc,

Thanks for that information.
It is my belief that he produced replica's of the 5300, as indicated in a thread in the 'other Italian' section, or in the 'barn find' thread in the vintage Ferrari section.

 

Some questions about this:
- Do you know why these cars were killed? Where they all involved in accidents?
- Cloth interiors were never delivered in new Khamsins by the factory I think?

And there is another question on my mind: someone mentioned the Merak of Walter; because of his statements about green soup I was very surprised, or is this one of the last Meraks without the green soup?

 

A Merak without green soup? Were there any?

Walter also appears to have a ZF gearbox in his car, and I hope he took some pics when he had his engine re-built recently, I think there are a lot of people who would like to see what the ZF box in a Merak looks like.
When did Alessandro de Tomaso aquire Maserati? During his reign, anything would have been possible.

As to a cloth interior:
Client is king. Maserati supplied cars in 2-tone paint-schemes (not neccessarily Khamsin), so why not a cloth interior?

 

Hello AMLC!

Firstly I feel lucky to have found Oliver Kuttner, secondly he is very busy and I don't feel like disturbing him again but I definitely don't think there an endemic pattern here.

I heard of one Khamsin catching fire and burning to the ground in New York in the eighties but not a single other fire instance: 376 in Germany burned because the building it was in burned. So this is not like 3 wheeled reliant Robins barrel rolling as soon as the driver sneezes or Miuras catching fire when they felt like it (we know it was the carbs overflowing but it is off topic anyway) or Renault Fuegos spinning out of control as soon as you braked or Ralph Nader's most unfavorite car (can't remember what it was).

Regarding cloth Khamsins there is this one which was for a long time for sale in Italy and then Germany. Will have to ask Cozza eventually.

Re the Merak i will let Walter answer: I don't know!

best regards,

Marc
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Marc,

Let's leave Ralph Nader out of it! He killed a lot more than just the Corvair, for which we actually need to thank him, as it is on a par with the BiTurbo. Principally not a bad car, it has its' following, but disliked by the masses.

The cloth-upholstered Khamsin must have been a hoot to drive with that light coloured dash-top.

I have further come to the conclusion that I strongly dis;like the nose-slats. They look Citroen after-thought, I think I'd have some leather straps made to put the spare wheel in the back and modify the flow to the rad, doing away with them altogether.

On a more serious note:
Why did Maserati try and set themselves apart from the other GT manufacturers with the Khamsin, and firstly adopt the green soup sytems, and secondly, why continue them after the involvement of Citroen ended?
My personal opinion is, that it must have scared away a lot of potential customers (and maybe still does). It placed the car outside of any competitiors' field, just not comparable, where it could have competed with the best of them in any case with more traditional engineering for sateering and brakes. Let me not start about hydraulically moving seats....

The earlier mentioning of psychiatrists comes to mind!

 

I do know one source that mentioned that the last 65 Meraks, built after 1980, did not have the Citroen brakes. These cars also had the Bora dashboard (as have all RHD Meraks?). And the last Meraks also had a ZF gearbox, but when they changed to that I don't know. Didn't these last 65 Meraks have any LHM at all? I think so.
As far as I know Meraks never had Citroen steering, although Jan Norbye does write in his book: "with regard to the steering Maserati took the system wholesale from the Citroen SM"; not correct?

By the way, I noticed something else while looking in Norbye's book: in may 1975 Citroen intended to close the Maserati plant, and Norbye writes: "Omer Orsi, with Giulio Alfieri and the sales director, Aldo Turrusio, tried to negotiate with the official receivers ..., seeking a way to keep Maserati in business". Omer Orsi? Did he play a role in the background during the Citroen years, and never really leave, or did he return in 1975 just because Maserati was in trouble again?

@f308jack: in Andy Heywood's article (see the link in one of Marcs posts) he mentioned that Alfieri needed a solution for the steering because of lack of space as a result of the engine's position in the Khamsin, and the Citroen system delivered that solution. Isn't that the answer to your question?

 

Picked my car up lat night in deepest darkest dorset (uk)! Wasn't the esiest thing picking up a car I had briefly driven in daylight , just as it was getting dark , with 40 miles of dark narrow country roads to get to a motorway!
After a lot of sawing around with the steering wheel I managed to adjust to 2 turns lock to lock and effective brakes!
Had a 110 mile drive last night to get bac to my base Hotel
Then today drove 440 miles via London to get back to Glasgow!
17mpg ( imperial) at a fairly steady 70-80mph and a few traffic hold ups!
First impressions:
Car is very comfortable on a long drive, with good seats
It is generally very stable as there were strong winds ( 20-30mph) most of the way and almost constant rain and wet roads
Is generally quite refined noise wise with some wind noise form rear window area
Handling will take getting used to and would like my car s geometry cecked as it was pulling slightly to the left. My friend said it seemed heavily negative cambered at back, but he isn't a car guy!
A few problems too! Was leaking LTM from below the accumulator tank although a dribble not high presure. Put in .75L although my handbook seems silent on the LTM and how to check level of tank? Any advice?
It ran roughly a few times which I think is due to it having not being used much and sediment and debris at bottom of tanks being disturbed? Have to explore this. Was odd happened when tnaks were low and going up hill! Any views?
Heater doesnt seem to work? But still have to fathom much of the handbook? Centre lever to right and anything else?
I tned to be quite fussy about my cars being set up correctly and running as intended as I do tend to drive them as they were designed to be used! So just the first two days and a list of things to check and sort getting prepared!
Any other tips? Hands on advice?
Overall, my impressions are that it is a 'gentlemans express' and quite different from ferraris or lambos!
Paul
Scotland ( the very rainy part)
UK
chassis 381

 

There's a tube (is that the right word?) in front of the LHM tank where you can check the LHM level (there's a max indication on the tube). You need good light to check this properly.

For heating the center lever to the right, and use the switch left of it for the fan. And use the (second) switch on the right of the center lever for the airco (I tried to write it correctly for RHD cars).

Good luck with the car! It might be wise to have the engine and the LHM system checked and serviced as soon as possible.

When accelerating hard it should make some noise by the way (maybe better to try this when it has stopped raining)!

 

Paul,

Congratulations!

I am quite envious of you, having taken possession of the car and getting to drive it all the way to Glasgow to boot.

Enjoy the period of getting aquainted with the car, its' strengths and idiosyncharsies.

If the car wasn't used, it may be a good idea to flush the tanks; my experience with cars like that is that an unimaginable amound of crud came out of there.

I cannot comment on your heater question, but I'm sure others will chime in. All I know is that the climate control systems in 70-ies and 80-ies cars were rather elaborate, andit may need some simple education or familiarizing to get it all to work to your satisfaction.

Strictly from what I've read, if you are losing hydraulic fluid, trace the leak and repair it. I am sure that the system will work perfectly dependable once you get to use the car as, as you describe, it was intended. The worst thing to do to a complicated car is not use it, the hydraulics are the first thing to suffer.

Drive the car, get familiar with it and compile a list of what you think needs improvement and work from there, but first and foremost, enjoy!

 

I am sure you are much better versed in matters Maserati than I am, and my library, unfortunately, lacks any titles on the subjects.

I have always loved the shape of the Merak, it being the only true contender to the crown of the 308, with which I am much more familiar. A Merak with normal braking system sounds like a wonderful car, and one to 'have on my list'. Not because I have something against the LHM system, but because I like my sportscras 'raw', seat of the pants, and a normal brake pedal with normal operating pressures adds to that.
I don't want to put oil on the ZF gearbox fire in Meraks, wrong discussion under this topic anyway, but am interested to know what is fact and what is fiction.

Your assessment about the steering system in the Khamsin is interesting. Of course the rack is positioned in a very unusual spot, but I can't see why a normally operated hydraulic rack couldn't be mounted in the same way. Educate me?
That is not to say I wouldn't like the set-up: a 2-turn lock to lock system iwith diminishing assist is brilliant. So, maybe that is an answer to my question after all.

 

Wow a lot of activity: wonderful!

Jack:

I will ask Cozza about this cloth Khamsin being original or not.

Regarding the hydraulic system remember that it is now established beyond a shadow of a doubt it was Maserati chief engineer Giulio Alfieri who chose to use Citroen hydraulics, Citroen did not impose them nor did they have anything to do with the slatted nose which was decided purely to aid cooling.

Only one man from Citroen had authority over Maserati: Pierre Bercot the president.

He specifically told Guy Malleret whom he put in charge at Maserati that no one from Paris was allowed to interfere. Bercot was a true enthusiast for Maserati and deeply respectful of the heritage.

He by principle did not want to interfere, other than in reorganizing the company, which was badly needed. He was hugely impressed with Giulio Alfieri who was indeed brilliant though he had a big ego which was a problem sometimes. Alfieri happened to like Citroens a lot and actually drove a gold colored SM as his daily driver for a great portion of those years.

Why the hydraulics you ask? because Paul who has just told us he has picked up his Khamsin and driven it through rain and massive congestion, had he picked up a taditional sports car say a Ghibli would be telling us about how his left leg and arms are still aching and numb the morning after from countless gear changes dealing with the heavy clutch and steering.

Back when the Khamsin was decided (as we now know it was actually in late 1970 remember this lightness and precision of controls was unheard of).

Remember the perfect girl or the perfect car don't exist you have to take what you consider good with waht you consider bad!

After de Tomaso took over he had only one thing in mind: get the Biturbo in production.

He reluctantly allowed Khamsin production to continue but allowed not one minute or cent of development: to not refine cars that had already come out was his notorious nature anyway but here the pressure was on due to the financial situation of Maserati and his funding coming in great part from Gepi the government's job protecting agency.

best regards,

Marc

 

Hello AMLC:

Regarding Meraks: because I have never taken a very strong interest in them and because unlike the Bora and Khamsin which were major innovations it is a derivative it is the car on which I have least details and will be speaking with Cozza and Cleto Grandi about them more in great detail within a month for my book.

What is certain is that:

-Meraks never had the SM steering: the Merak was meant to be inexpensive so was mostly a no frills car (and I don't mean this in a demeaning way). That is an error in Norbye's book but we all make mistakes: I tried contacting him once but the response to my email was "I heard about that man but we just have the same name it is not me!" don't know if the author is still alive.

-Omar Orsi (Omer was a typo by the birth registration agency that never got changed: sometimes Italy is REALLY hard to understand! It is not a unique case though: former Brazilian F1 driver Mauricio Gugelmin's ancestors arrived in Brazil to immigrate from Italy with the name Guglielmi before getting registered with their name completely mispelled!).

Omar Orsi stayed on in an honorary advisory role until 1971 when as things were just too different in his taste, i.e. the necessary industrialization and reorganisation of a severely ageing factory he left completely.

However the Orsis were from Modena and of course had very strong feelings for maserati after owning the company for 30 years so when Peugeot decide to close the doors in May of 1975 it goes without saying that he came forth to try to help in any way he could.

Aldo Turrrussio was the sales manager and someone I would dearly have loved to interview but he died a very long time ago of a heart attack literally on the staircase of an airliner at a middle eastern airport during a trip for Maserati...

best regards,

Marc

 

Paul:

Congratulations: you certainly had quite a challenging first day: those English backroads have a lot of ruts bumps and camber changes which make learning the steering even harder but you are lucky to live in Scotland which has fabulous roads.

I will leave the technical advice to others here who are very knowledgeable but two things: yes definitely flush your gas tank asap, check that the hose which connects the tank to where you put the fuel nozzle is not leaking as it can generate smell and could be a safety issue. You may also want to flush the radiator and cooling system as sludge can build up.
Changing engine, gearbox and differential oil is a good idea as it is inexpensive and good insurance: I did it on the four Porsches I had and on my Khamsin when I bought them.

Regarding the LHM system it is a simple plumbing system like water in a house, except it is pressurised but when in good condition it stays perfectly reliable if the car is used regularly i.e. a couple of times a month for drives of at least 10 miles during which the car reaches full operating temperature and you give it some serious revs a few times.

Depending on how much thre previous owner drove recently you may have one or two leaks but as you take the car on excursions you will note (if any) where they are and get them sorted.
Any classic car needs to be sorted and then it is happiest being driven.

Make sure your mechanic knows never to put anything other than LHM in the system.

The second thing is: once you have the car sorted and you go out on a dry day and really push it really explore the upper reaches of its performance you will be amazed! It is not a modern supercar but it is much faster than most people expect

best regards,

Marc

 

The handbook is remarkable in not providing some obvious information!
To check the oil it says wait a few minutes with engine idling. I take it upper mark is where the line is below the open parts of the dipstick? There is no lower mark so any ideas what the difference is between the lowest point of stick and the mark?
Secondly, have noticed tonight a noise form the pulley area and see that appears to be a greace nipple behind the pulleys on the case, any ideas?
thirdly, found a 'water tap' on an water pipe in engine bay, I take it that is non standard? May explain why had no heating in the car!
Paul
xx

 

Paul:

Hopefully someone can help and provide you with answers.

I would say the dipstick part sounds correct but last time I checked my oil before having to seel mine was December 2006 so a bit fuzzy.

I would look at the pulley: try calling Bill mcGraths for example.

the water tap does not sound familiar.

I was looking at photos of your car yesterday and it really looks to be in particulalry nice cosmetic condition!

AMLC:

I did ask Oliver Kuttner your question, i.e. the exact cause of the demise of those cars and here is the part of his email to me which answers your question:

"One red one I bought from a body shop in NJ it had had a fire which looked
more like it had started as an electrical under dash fire than a carburetor
fire.
the silver one was hit lightly in the left front corner. parts were really
expensive and automatic Khamsins were not valued well. that was the
unfortunate end. The right front corner did make another damaged one return to
service though.
The ones Randi killed I do not know the details because by the time I bought
his parts all I know is that I inherited good used parts which had to come from
somewhere.

I do agree that Khamsins did not have an inherent problem. The biggest problem
may have been unqualified mechanics (both for the engine and the citroen
system), expensive difficult to get parts and low values.
I always liked them very much and tried not to part out cars."

End of quote.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity.

The car that caught fire in New Jersey is red like the only car I heard of catching fire anywhere, which was in New York so very possibly the same one.

Bear in mind Oliver's comments apply to events in the eighties, not now.

best regards,

Marc